What Does the Bible Say a Good Pastor Should Look Like? | Bible, Bros & Brew

A good pastor leads the way Jesus described in Mark chapter 9 and Mark chapter 10: as a servant, not a celebrity. First Peter chapter 5 says a true shepherd leads willingly, never for personal gain, and by example rather than control. Ezekiel chapter 34 warns against leaders who feed themselves instead of their flock. This episode wraps up the Broken Church series with a clear picture of what to look for — and what to run from — in church leadership. 

David McIntyre and Phillip Rich, with host/producer Jon Dzyuba, close out their series on celebrity preachers and celebrity pew-sitters. They walk through Mark chapter 9 and Mark chapter 10, where Jesus' own disciples argue about who is the greatest, and show how that same posture shows up in churches today — leaders who expect to be served rather than to serve. Then they turn to First Peter chapter 5, Ephesians chapter 4, and Ezekiel chapter 34 to paint a picture of what a true shepherd looks like, and close in John chapter 3 with the model every believer is called to: "He must increase, and I must decrease." 

Scripture Referenced 

Mark 9:33–42 · Mark 10:32–45 · First Peter 5:1–4 · Ephesians 4:11–16 · Ezekiel 34:1–16 · John 3:26–30 · First Corinthians 1 & First Corinthians 3 · Third John 1:9–10 

Mini FAQ 

Q: What did the disciples argue about in Mark chapter 9? 

A: They argued about which of them was the greatest — even though they were walking with Jesus in person. 

Q: What does First Peter chapter 5 say makes a good shepherd? 

A: A good shepherd leads willingly (not out of compulsion), eagerly (not for personal gain), and by example (not by lording authority over people). 

Q: What does Ezekiel chapter 34 say about bad leaders? 

A: God pronounces "woe" on shepherds who feed themselves instead of the flock, and promises to personally search for and rescue His scattered sheep. 

Hosts:  David McIntyre and Phillip Rich, with host/producer Jon Dzyuba. 

Available every Monday at 6 AM. 

ubscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Amazon Music. biblebrosbrew.com. Where the Word Meets the Daily Grind. 

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Transcript

Celebrity Preachers And The Real Problem

David McIntyre 0:00

Over the last few weeks, we've been talking about celebrity preachers and pew influencers. And we've been talking about how this movement amongst some churches or some in the church has created such a significant problem that change has to come. And so last week we talked a little bit about Paul, Apollos, Peter, and Jesus. And we talked about how Christ has the eminence, the pre-eminence. This week we're gonna kind of wrap that conversation up. We're gonna talk about how the disciples even got mixed up in some of this stuff. And then we're gonna paint a picture of what the good looks like so you'll know what to look for. Up next on Bible Bros in Bruce. With me today are the one and only Philip Rich and our man with the plan. He's a football man, so forget. His name is John, and he's here with us right now. John and Philip, what's up?

Jon Dzyuba 1:31

What's going on? It is all football.

David McIntyre 1:34

Uh we learned football's good. I'm just picking. Uh so football is good. We're glad you guys have all joined us. You know, as I said in our intro, we've been talking about this concept of celebrity preachers and even celebrity pew sitters uh in the church. And, you know, another way to think about it, some people might put it as a as, you know, rock star preachers, you know, rock star folks that are in the pulpits who kind of have a way of drawing the attention off of Christ and onto them. I think I shared with you a week or so ago as we were talking about this, about the pastor who was doing all this great work in Guatemala and all of this stuff. And at church, what would happen is, you know, we would get a video, and a video would say, you know, our pastor led the way for for this, this, and this in Guatemala, and this, this, and this. Oh, by the way, thank you for giving. And so, you know, it was always it all it seemed like things always led to and pointed towards him, some things. Um, and I and to be fair, I don't believe that was his desire per se, but it was the desire of some in the organization who felt like that's the way it had to be, um, holy. Um, but so but we see it in our in our world today. Mostly you probably see it on YouTube or Facebook or your social media, where you see so many people. I can think of another pastor right now that every time I see his videos, it's about him. It's all about him. And this is not what Christ left us to do. And so today we're gonna kind of wrap up that conversation by talking about what, you know, first of all, we're gonna talk a little bit about the disciples because the disciples got caught up in this stuff, and it just the point that we're making with it is that even those who followed Christ closely could get caught up in this place of trying to position yourself to be seen, to be the first, to be preeminent. And so there were problems there, and I'll show you exactly where we see this with the disciples, and you might be a little bit surprised by what you see. And then we're gonna go back and we're gonna look at 1 Peter chapter 5, and we're gonna look at some of the things that the Bible tells us about what God is looking for in a shepherd. Why? Because you need to be able to identify the good shepherds when you see them to know where is a great place to connect and where maybe some places where you don't connect. And then finally, we're gonna bring it back to us. We're gonna answer the question what does all this mean for me? What does it have to do with me? Because in the middle of all of this, this is really all about you in the sense that you have to make the choices and decisions in order to connect yourself to the right place. You know, it's no different if you have a Tesla, but you go to a Rivian charging station, that charging station is not gonna work for you. The adapters on the end are different. So your Rivian station isn't gonna charge your Tesla. And what's interesting though is when you go to the Tesla station, if you know what you're doing, you'll find that there's a Rivian adapter there for you. So Tesla might be the better place for you to be than at the Rivian location. And that's what we're gonna talk about today. Before

What’s In The Cup

David McIntyre 5:18

we do that, we've of course gotta take a look at and find out what's in the cup. Alright, John, let's start with you here today. What's in the cup, buddy?

Jon Dzyuba 5:27

I'm so glad you asked. Um, I went with something refreshing today. I went with something that was like gonna make me feel cool in the summer. Um don't hate on the brand, but I'll just say what it is. It's a brown sugar cinnamon uh light roast. Iced check it out. I got my become my beck in the cup. Come on, I'm feel I'm feeling the world cup, you guys. If you can't tell, I'm feeling it today. I miss it. We talked about it earlier. If you missed it, we were alive, we had a whole conversation. You should join us every single Wednesday night live, 7-15. You should definitely meet us there. Exactly. But yeah, just a very brown sugar cinnamon coffee today. Um, I needed this. I needed something to take the edge off, and it's doing exactly what I needed it to do. It's beautiful, lovely.

David McIntyre 6:28

Nice. And did I understand that that was a big bucks coffee you had there?

Jon Dzyuba 6:33

Oh no. Watch out for those silica powders. Look at the cup. Oh my gosh.

David McIntyre 6:40

Oh, just look, I like that, John. That was good. He's like, just look at the cup. Just look at the cup. Yes, it's beautiful. Phillip, what you drinking tonight so we can draw off our our attention off of the fact that John has dipped into the big bucks bucket again.

Phillip Rich 6:56

I mean, dude. Just make sure to find something to filter out that arsenic if if you can. I'm not gonna mess with you too much, man. But um I was pretty pretty tired this morning, so I was looking for something that would give me a little pick me up. Um, so sorry.

SPEAKER_03 7:33

That was so stupid. Dude, that was so cool. So thank you.

Phillip Rich 7:44

Um I have okay, there's a thing that happens sometimes in in the course of games.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

Oh gosh. Help me, Lord. Oh, Jesus help me. All right, okay.

Phillip Rich 8:12

Look, oh gosh. So long story short, sometimes I'll grind up beans and like let's say that I'm close to the end of the bag, right? Let's say that I pour all the beans that are in the bag, like that are left in a bag, I pour them all into the grinder, then I just throw the bag away. I grind up, you know, some, but not all the beans. And then maybe the like another day, I might not want to eat that. Well, eat that, drink that same coffee. So I will take the beans out of the grinder that I didn't yet grind, but now they have no home because they don't have a bag anymore. So I'll I started putting them into a cup and then just kind of cover the cup up. Well, after a while, I did this with like five or six different coffees. So now I have one cup that's full of a miscellaneous assortment of beans. Mystery brew. Mystery brew. So I can't even say mystery, you it's you don't know what it is because it's everything. I mean, it's like literally like you're just confused.

David McIntyre 9:20

So the scenes of the day, exactly.

Phillip Rich 9:24

So I started saying, you know what, I'm just gonna grind it all up and just find out how it tastes. And so I've come up with a name for it, it's not very creative, but it is the name, and it's called Phil's Mix. Yeah, so um basically it's uh it's probably a combination of several peregrines, you know, of some kind or another.

David McIntyre 9:47

Well, that that was the given, yes, right.

Phillip Rich 9:50

So and uh, but yeah, man, it's good. I don't know it what's in this cup except blessing. So um just want to say uh uh yeah, I highly recommend doing this if you ever have a lot of time on your hands. So um anyway, let me get on. Let me let me move on from my uh David.

David McIntyre 10:10

How about you, man? I'll keep it simple, everybody. Uh, tonight I've gone back to a coffee that we had from the Indian caffeine company, Paul Johns. This is their Bangalore Dreams. Come on now. Um, once again, this has flavors of um it's fruity notes of pomegranate, apple, and a pleasant acidity with hints of orange and rose. As they sound the package, it's the real deal. It is the real deal. It sounds like the real deal. I like that. Yeah, it's a it's a good coffee. It um you you definitely, you know, you taste it when you go from fruity to more, you know, to other flavors like your your caramels and maples of the world that you know are out there, or vanillas. You feel you can tell that it's different, but it's still a nice uh conversational cup of ladies and gentlemen.

Phillip Rich 11:13

Yes, sir. That's all we got.

Paul’s Warning Against Boasting

David McIntyre 11:15

All right, that's what's in the cup now. We're gonna jump right into the word. Uh John, if you would, let's let's start by looking at Mark chapter 9. We're gonna start in verse 33. And, you know, we were, as I said, as we've been talking, we've kind of talked about a lot of stuff. Last week, one of the we talked about a couple of specific things. First of all, we talked about this concept, you know, that Paul says, you know, I can't even deal with you guys as an adult or as adults, because I hear one of you says, Well, I'm of Cephas, and I'm of Apollos, and I'm of Paul, and others say I'm of Christ. And Paul asked the question, he's like, Who is Paul? Who's Apollos? You know, he's like, We're we're basically what Paul goes on to say is we're nobody. And then in the next chapter over, or I think it's just a couple of chapters, um, that was uh 1 Corinthians 1. Then I think we jump over to 1 Corinthians 3, and Paul comes back to this concept, and he basically says, you know, I I planted, or Pa Apollos planted, I watered, but God gets the increase, and it's the one who gives the increase that matters here. God is the increase giver. And so he says, so in the future, he kind of wrapped the conversation up at the end of the chapter and basically said, you know what? No more boasting in man. If you're gonna boast, boast in Christ. He's the one that's doing something, he's the one that matters most. And we kind of took away from that. That, you know, that's a simple thing that you can look for in your church. Is your pastor preaching himself or is he preaching Christ? Is the ministry leader, the small group leader, or whatever, when they get you at their house and there's 10 or 15 of you, are they preaching themselves or are they preaching and exalting Christ? We looked and we even saw a great example of, you know, like just think about small group, even though these things happened, you know, the church was in people's homes uh back in the Bible day. There were synagogues, but people studied and dug into and did fellowship and life together in people's homes. And so we see that um I think it was I think it was Paul who talked about this cat named Diatrophes. And I'm sorry, it's John actually. John in 3rd John chapter, well, there's not a chapter there, it's just verses 9 and 10. But he talks about how Diatrophes loves to be first, he loves to have the preeminence. In other words, he loves to be able to dominate over people and be first in everything. And so he says he goes as far as to not let people exercise hospitality towards others. And when strangers come in, he won't allow them to bring in strangers and he won't allow them to communicate and connect with us. And so he says, When I see him, we're gonna have words. And it's so interesting because you have this picture of Diotrophes, but then there's another guy, I believe his name is Darius. I could be wrong, or it could be Demetrius, um, who's in that same chapter, and Paul starts that chapter off by applauding him for the very thing that Diotrophes doesn't do, and that is show hospitality and love to his brothers. And so it doesn't matter whether it's coming from the pulpit, whether it's from a small group or somebody who's leading in the church in the pews, to have this sense that you need to be preeminent, that you have to be first, that it's about you and not about Christ is a picture of a wrong type of leadership. Unfortunately, some of it is bred and taught in the church. And that's a significant mistake because some people are just doing what they've been taught to do and make it about them rather than seeing it be about everyone and everything. And so I want us to now look at that with that in mind.

The Disciples Argue About Greatness

David McIntyre 16:08

I want to look at Mark 9, verse 33, because we even see a picture here of the very disciples. We're talking about the guys who became the apostles, the guys who are currently literally sitting next to Jesus for the three and a half years, maybe a few a little less, depending on when they were picked up, but most of them got a good chunk of time with Jesus, and they were sitting around Jesus. And if you look at verse 33, it says Oh, John, I can't read yours. I'm sorry. I am a man of age these days. That's okay. How's that? Let me just maybe if I take these glasses off, I can do better. One moment, please, while I see. Alright, Mark 9. I'm gonna read this if you guys don't mind. Uh I'm gonna read this out of the Berean Study Bible, if you if you will, the the Strong's Berean Study Bible, John. So if we look at verse 33, it says, Then they came to Capernom while Jesus was in the house. He asked them, What were you discussing on the way? Now let me just give you just a really quick back step, right? So right before all of this happened, um they had just dealt Jesus, okay, first the transfiguration happened. All right, and then after the transfiguration with Peter, James, and John, they went up the mountain. You know, Jesus sees um Elijah and Moses, he's transformed, right? Disciples see this and they're like, man, do we need to set up a tabernacle here? What do we need to do? And Jesus was like, dudes, just relax. And then they move from the transfiguration to dealing with the boy with an evil spirit. Um, so when these four, Jesus, James, and um John, and then Jesus, James, John, and Peter go back down to where the other disciples are, they're in the throes of another situation. There's a boy with an evil spirit, and his dad explains it basically. He says that sometimes this evil spirit will throw him in the water, and then sometimes it'll throw him on the fire. So he's either getting drowned or he's getting burned. And the father says, I came to your disciples to get help, but they couldn't do anything with them. And so Jesus turns to them, the King James says, O ye of little faith. Um, the Berean study Bible says, Oh, unbelieving generation. But either way, what he was communicating was there was there was a there was a gap in their faith that needed to be addressed. And so Jesus asked how long this had been happening. Then he the father says it's been going on this long. He gives them a little bit more story about it, but then he says the big faith statement that we're all very familiar with. Um, if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us. And in verse 23, it says, if you can echo Jesus, um all things are possible to him who believes. And so you have to realize that is a question mark at the end of if you can, by the way. Just a side note. That's a question mark, not an exclamation point. Uh Jesus was like, What do you it was almost like, what do you mean, if you can? All things are possible to him, them who believe. Period. And then immediately the boy's father cried out, I do believe. Listen to this, help my unbelief. Uh, such a dynamic bit of scripture. And so Jesus cast this demon out. He came shrieking, as it says, and convulsing the boy. And Jesus said, No, you're out of here, buddy. And so then we move on from there. Uh they go through Galilee. Um, so they secretly kind of skip through Galilee, and then they're having conversations. So all these things have happened. And when we get to 33, it says, then they came to Capernam. While Jesus was in the house, he asked them, What were you discussing on the way? When Jesus asked you a question, I'm pretty sure he probably already knows what the answer to that question is. But he asked them what they were discussing along the way, because back previously we heard that they were discussing something particular, and you'll see in just a minute. And it says, but they were silent, for on the way they had been arguing about which of them was the greatest. Sitting down, Jesus called the twelve and said, If anyone wants to be first, he must be the last of all and the servant of all. Then he had a little child stand among them, taking the child in his arms. He said to them, Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes not only me, but the one who sent me. And then John said to him, Teacher, we saw someone else driving out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him because he does. Not accompany us. And Jesus said, Don't stop him. For no one who performs a miracle in my name can turn around and speak evil of me. For whoever is not against us is for us. Indeed, if anyone gives you a cup of water because you bear the name of Christ, truly, I tell you, he will never lose his reward. The conversation's all connected. And then I'm going to end here in 42, and he comes back to the child. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea. What we see here back in 33, we see the disciples arguing over who is the greatest among them. Phil, that sh that caught me off guard because of all the conversations I would have thought about the disciples having, who was the greatest amongst them never came to my mind. But now seeing it here in the Word, it's like you know, these guys were more, they kind of seem to have been missing it all along, would you say?

Phillip Rich 23:17

Yeah, it is so fascinating because not only did it say they were discussing it, it said they were arguing. Like if you think about it, that means there was a bit of contention. And and I'm wondering how that might have sounded. Like, I can't imagine it was something as simple as I'm the greatest. No, no, I'm the greatest. You know, I don't know that they were going that route with it. Part of me thinks that they were probably trying to connect it to something that you know, where they said, Well, Jesus uh assigned me to do X, Y, and Z. Oh, yeah, well, Jesus spent X number of you know minutes with me in prayer. I I feel like they probably connected it to him somehow, right? And that was their way of saying, Okay, I'm I'm better in with the head honcho than you guys are, so I'm I'm I'm really the greatest here, you know, or he's given me more responsibility than than he gave you. So uh he trusts me the most. So I have to be the greatest, you know. But I this fascinating that the fact that they actually were literally the Bible records they were arguing about this, and it's like, man, um, it wasn't just a thing of you know, like neat little suggestions, or maybe this, or they were all agreeing about something. No, it was it was something that they were trying to kind of duke it out, not necessarily fist fight, but they were trying to duke it out verbally, uh, who would be the greatest. And so you see just from that, to me, it it gives you a clue as to the carnality that that these disciples were walking in. They were very, you know, I guess we could put it this way, spiritually immature. And it's funny because even I if I could remember what scripture where it's at, but I know it's in the Bible, when uh there was another guy who was going out and casting out demons or something, but he wasn't part of the disciples. And one of the disciples came to Jesus and he said, Hey man, this guy over here, he's doing stuff trying to do miracles in your name. Uh, should we call down fire from heaven like Elijah? You know, they're ready to cook him to a crisp. It's like, hold on, man, slow down. And so Jesus actually said this. He said, You don't know what spirit you are of. He said, You don't even know what spirit you're of. You know, in other words, slow down, bro. You know, you have no idea just how far off the mark you are, man. And then uh, there's so many other places where he had to remind them, if you want to be the greatest, be the servant of everyone else, you know, and that was such foreign language to them, I'm sure, that they, you know, they because if you think about the time period in which these guys were were living, you know, we're talking about the Roman Empire, we're talking about uh a situation where might made right. That's all people knew. There was no real compassion, there was no real uh empathy for other human beings. It was a very cut and dry, kind of brutal kind of a place to to be back in in the early you know first century, and that's just how life was. So you're talking about people who had that mentality, it was very much dog eat dog out there, and so for them to hear things like, Hey, uh, if you want to be the greatest, serve everybody else, or you know, if you you know, no good no greater love exists than for you to lay your life down for somebody else. That was like almost like a completely foreign language to these guys, right? And so it's a fascinating thing when you think about the the ideas that Jesus introduced into the world at the time that really weren't there before, you know. It was it was I mean, they there was obviously moral codes and things like that that people you know had had come up with, but we're talking like a radical step up. It's like wow, he Jesus, you know, is saying not only to to treat people okay, but also maybe even at the expense of yourself sometimes, and that was completely foreign to most people, man.

David McIntyre 27:22

So yeah, yeah, you know, we we if you recall in book in the in Acts, you know, the Sadducees and Pharisees or whoever it was, the leaders, when they were referring to the disciples, he talked about how these are they that turn the world upside down. And I I think of that as the whole what I still call the counterculture movement that is Christianity.

Phillip Rich 27:53

Yes.

David McIntyre 27:54

And you know, it was even in their time, you know, to you know, just like Philip just said, laying down your life for a friend wasn't the common thought process. Jesus introduces something that you know they that is foreign to them, and he's constantly introducing these guys to ideas and thinking that is foreign to them at that time, but he's saying this is the better way, and so this concept, even that Jesus brings out in verse 35, because after he hears that they've been arguing, he doesn't get mad at him per se, or at least we don't get the sense that he gets mad, but he sits down with them and he says, Whoever's gonna be the first of you, meaning preeminence, having dominance, whoever's going to be leading the way, he must be the last of all and the servant of all. How counterculture must that thought have been to them to say that the way up is down? Right. That makes that makes no sense to our it doesn't make any sense a lot of times to our own common sense thinking right now. Why? Because we're taught from a very young age to climb, climb the corporate ladder, build your way up, you know, reach for the sky, you know, reach for the stars, you know, you just want to keep going higher and higher and higher. And so the direction that we're at least, well, let me not get into that. The direction that some of us have been given all of our lives is up, up, up, up, up. Or maybe I will say that's more maybe generational. Um, you know, I know our generation was pointed up. You know, it was like the space landing in the 60s, you know, we're going up. And you know, later on in the 70s, you're going up. I wasn't born in the 60s, so don't look at me like that. I'm not a boomer. Um, but then just reaching and soaring higher, and there were all these examples. You had Jordan, it's like, man, to be great like Jordan. You had Jackson, you're like, man, to be great like Michael Jackson, or to be as awesome as a Dustin Hoffman of the world, or as a uh what's what's his name? Um, the great Ben Carson. You know, you had all of these great men and great women out there, and you could model your lives after a Meryl Street, you could model your life after this astronaut, this female astronaut. You can model your lives off of these things, and you're like, you're supposed to model it and go, go, go. And Jesus is saying, go down, go down, go down. And that's that that can be wild for people. But then at the same time, Philip, don't you see it? Can't you see that the way I mean because just if you think about it practically, if you're the one caring for people, if you're the one loving on people, if you're the one washing feet, if you're the one out there meeting needs, I can see how that builds trust.

Phillip Rich 31:32

Yeah. Yep.

David McIntyre 31:33

I mean, is that crazy thinking?

Phillip Rich 31:36

No, no, no. I think it's on point. It's actually uh we we could call it like relationship equity that you're building, right? It's it's you're investing in that relationship and it builds equity with that person when you've proven yourself over and over again that you'll be there uh when they need you, that you're willing to help, even sometimes when they haven't asked you, you know, you're still willing to help. Um, those things they they don't go unnoticed, you know. Um, there it's just like was that thing? Oh, yeah, yeah, from back in 1 Samuel or 2nd Samuel, I forgot which one. But when David was trying to find someone from the house of Saul that he could show goodness to, anybody he could bless, yeah. Anybody he could bless. He was like, Is there anybody of the house of Saul that I could bless? And I know he was thinking because of what Jonathan had done for him, right? Even though Jonathan had already, you know, died, and and and uh that friendship had ended in a tragic way, it was a thing where David was like, but I don't want to ever forget what Jonathan did for me. Yeah, and so he was looking for somebody else in that same lineage, and he found Mephibosheth. Um, which interestingly enough, I looked it up, and this is just kind of a side note, but I looked it up. Mephibosheth, his name actually meant to blow the shame away. That's such a cool I love that to blow the shame away. That's pretty cool. And so basically, David did that as king. He he he took the shame off of Mephibosheth uh by exalting him and having him at a place at the the king's table and all that good stuff like that. But uh, you know, that's the thing, it's like when somebody has done you a kindness or done done something good for you, most people are not willing to to let that go unnoticed or overlooked. So yeah, I think it's uh an investment for sure.

David McIntyre 33:34

I think that's so good, Philip.

James And John Ask For Thrones

David McIntyre 33:36

And then if we just really quickly jump over to Mark chapter 10, we see again a very similar uh well, well, maybe yeah, a little bit similar situation with the disciples. When you look at Mark chapter 10, we look at verse 32. Let me just get there with you, John. When we look at verse 32, we see some straight up chicanery going on right here. Uh and I like I like this uh I know it's so like immature, maybe. I like this this chapter because it's like this this segment because it's like, can you believe they did that? Mm-hmm, girl, and then look, John did this, and James was right with them, and they mama was behind the scenes. Uh no, in verse 32, it says in Mark chapter 10, it says, as they were going up the road to Jerusalem, Jesus was walking ahead of them. The disciples were amazed, but those who followed were afraid. Again, Jesus took the twelve aside and began to tell them what was going to happen to him. He says, Look, we're going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priest and scribes. They will condemn him to death, and he will deliver him over to the Gentiles, who will mock him and spit on him and flog him and kill him, and after three days he will rise again. So Jesus is setting the stage. So the disciples see, okay, Jesus keeps telling us the end is coming. It says, Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to Jesus and declared, Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Okay.

David McIntyre 35:31

What do you want me to do for you? He inquired. They answered, Grant that one of us may sit at your right hand and the other at your left hand in your glory. Jesus responded, You do not know what you're asking. Jesus replied, Can you drink the cup I will drink or be baptized with the baptized baptism I will undergo? They both immediately said, We can, the brothers answered.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Of course.

David McIntyre 36:00

And Jesus said, You will indeed drink the cup that I drink. Jesus said, And you will be baptized with the baptism that I undergo. But to sit at my right hand or my left is not mine to grant. These seats belong to those for whom they have been prepared. Okay. Then verse 41 goes on and says, When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. So Jesus had to pull the boys together. So Jesus called them together and said, You know that those regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lorded over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. But it shall not be this way among you. Come on. Instead, and he brings us back to what he just said in chapter 9:Whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be the slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Phillip Rich 37:19

Wow. Wow.

David McIntyre 37:21

What what's your thoughts on that, Philip?

When Pastors Expect Celebrity Treatment

Phillip Rich 37:24

It's fascinating to me how, and I'm not I'm not gonna go on my diatribe, but it's fascinating to me how opposite this is from what we see in a lot of ministries today. Um, with the leaders, people that are in charge, pastors, where the whole thing is serving your man of God, and they expect a certain level of uh fealty and servanthood from the people that are uh in their circle, and you know, it's like it's just fascinating. Uh they they expect celebrity treatment, they expect someone to hold the door for them and open and hold their Bible for them and chauffeur them around, you know, and and all in this, all in the name of protecting my anointing. And it's like, bro, I think you might have missed this entire passage here in Mark 10. You know, because in its entirety, in its entirety, it's like there this this idea that the man of God or the preacher or the pastor, whatever, has some elevated status, and because of that, he deserves to be attended to all the time. And I'm like, but that's not what Jesus told them, that's not what he told them. He said, No, that's what that's the way the Gentiles operate. Uh, it's not supposed to be that way with you. So if you want to be the greatest, then you are the one that should be going around attending to others, and it's it's it's exercising what Philippians 2 says, you know, don't look everybody on his own thing, own things only, but on the things of others as well. You know, but again, somehow that got lost in translation. I don't know how, but now we have that thing where you got one person carrying the man of God's coat, another person carrying their Bible, and and and you've got people who are practically, you know, I hate to say it, but they're like it's almost like slave labor because they go out and run errands for the man of God all over the city sometimes and don't get a paid a dime for it. And and sometimes that it can cost them their sleep schedule, it can cost them time and money, and it's like, okay, I get it, you know, I I appreciate those people and their heart to serve, but if I'm the leader and I'm seeing this, I don't know. There should be something in you that goes, wait a minute, that you know, this this I might be taking this a little bit too far.

David McIntyre 39:49

You couldn't pick up your own Dunkin' Donuts on the way in, right?

Phillip Rich 39:53

Right. And and you've got some folks who, I mean, sadly, they've taken pride in that role, you know. They're like, I know what Pastor's McDonald's order is you know, to the T. And I can go there and and you know, recite it by heart. I know what his daughter's order is, and all this stuff like that. And it's like, where did y'all get all of this? Is just off. Okay.

David McIntyre 40:17

And and it brings you back to the question, is that Christ? Is there you know? And it's we're not saying it's a bad thing to do service for your church leaders and stuff like that if there's a need and you're able to. Absolutely, it's okay to do that, but we're talking about the places where that is expected. Yes, it's the way that it is designed and it's supposed to be. And remember what Jesus says at the end of this. Uh, not only does he say it shouldn't be, it shall not be this way with you, but he also said the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. And what we don't see a bunch of is even with the disciples, we don't see Jesus having them run out and do a bunch of his errands and stuff. No, somebody go pick up my dry cleaning, please, and handle it with handle it with care because the anointing is on my e-fog. Exactly. We don't we don't see that at all. And again, there's nothing wrong with being a blessing and a help to the pastor, the leaders of the church, but when it's baked in that that's just the way it is, and that is your that is your service, you have to ask questions. The other thing this thing says, and I want to go back just a little bit, um, he again says that this isn't the way that you are going to do it. Again, that counterculture thought process that says our way is a different way than the world does it. Because the world would have you try to run to be at the pastor's feet all the time, the world would have you trying to run errands and doing everything for them to make yourself indispensable to them. But really, the goal is for you to feel important, for you to feel seen, for you to feel like you are somebody in the sphere of somebody else who is considered to be somebody, but not necessarily by God, but by people.

SPEAKER_03 42:44

Right.

David McIntyre 42:46

And so we've got we've got to snap, we've got to snap out of this because that is not the way. The best way I can be a blessing to my church is to serve, not try to take the lead. So I do, I serve teenagers, I work with them and I work to help disciple them, teaching the word and driving them to know Christ better, to walk with them, even in these teenage years. That's an important piece of the puzzle, and you can see Christ in it. But to say my ministry is to walk alongside Pastor and get his McDonald's each week. Come on, come on, guys, we gotta do better than that. And the reason why we're mentioning it is not only because we've seen it, but we see it happening in other churches just here in Atlanta where we are, but we know because we've traveled. Look, Philip and I have traveled around this nation, yeah, seeing churches, seeing pastors, seeing leaders. We have seen a lot and we We see how people function and operate, and we see how some of them want to pick up the mindset of this pastor who's a celebrity out of control pastor. So they want to become a mini-me. And so they got people going out picking up their McDonald's orders, too.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

Mm-hmm.

David McIntyre 44:18

And getting their coffee from Duncan for no other reason than I want to be like that guy. Which means once again, we're teaching the wrong things down the line. And you know, I feel I'll just say this one other thing real quick about this. You know, there's one thing I picked up in this commentary, and it is it says the desire to be central is not limited to false teachers. It can arise among genuine disciples. That means the church must not merely point at corrupt preachers, every believer must examine the desire to be noticed, heard, praised, and considered important.

Phillip Rich 45:03

Wow. Wow. And you know what? That's a desire that can affect any and everybody, right, David? It's it's like you it's a temptation a lot of times, especially for people in in uh well, let me just say it, especially for people who have come from bad backgrounds, maybe they were come came from abusive homes or whatever the case is, or traumatic type things that have happened, where they've taken a lot of hits to their self-esteem, and they're looking for a way to feel important or a way to feel like they matter, and so a lot of times they gravitate to those types of positions because that's where they feel they can find significance. And I understand the the motive and the motivation, but there does come a point where you realize that sometimes it can be counterproductive, sometimes it can end up putting you in places that'll be damaging even further because you can you help you help set yourself up for your own heart rate. Yes, absolutely, absolutely, and not only that, but it's like even even back to the example of you know getting the pastor's McDonald's order. I've seen situations where let's say the person gets that order wrong by accident and gets fussed out by the pastor because I don't know why you can't get something as simple as an order, you know, figured out. I mean, it could be things like that. Next thing you know, they're they're living honestly in a a bit of an abusive type of relationship with the pastor because if they get something wrong, they get punished, sometimes publicly scorned for it. I mean, David and I have sat in meetings where we saw people get publicly scorned for getting something wrong in front of everybody else. And it was it was meant to, I think there's there's like a dual uh purpose for those types of things. It's kind of a shock and awe thing that they believe helps keep everybody in line. You know, it's like uh uh okay, if I if I make an example of this person, then nobody else will be stepping out of line in here. It's control, it's control, it's control because everybody knows that that acceptance from the group is one of the things that motivates a lot of people, and when they feel like they're putting that at risk, then it can create this thing of, oh man, I've I better, I better keep myself together. And you know, you don't even know, and I'm telling you from experience because I've lived it, and I'm I know David, you have too. You don't even know sometimes uh the anxiety you can carry underneath, you know, the the the undercurrent of anxiety, honestly, and this and it's fear, and when you really boil it down, it's fear that you can walk around with all the time because you're too you're concerned about screwing up because you don't want to be put on the spot like that or lose your position or fall out of favor with those who are important, all that stuff can really be just mess with your mind.

David McIntyre 47:58

Yep. I I remember, and I think I may have said it on this podcast before the one of the churches that Phil and I worked at together. You know, if you messed up, they might not even say anything to you. You might just show up at church ready to worship the Lord and whatnot. You know, you prayed that morning, you got here in the spirit on the Lord's day, and see the announcements pop up and see your job up on the screen. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. You you want you want you want to talk about getting taken out of the spirit, and now I mean just think about that. Now you're not even hearing the word that day. What's on your mind is what's going on with your job and why are you on the board? You're gonna have to hear about it Monday morning, and so now anxiety sets in. Now the Bible says be anxious for nothing, but the people we're working for at the church are doing their best to make sure we stay anxious.

Phillip Rich 48:56

Good Lord of mercy.

David McIntyre 48:58

I mean, we've got we've got to be so careful about this, you guys. We've got to be wise and we've got to go into this stuff eyes open. So many of us, you know, are guilty of just being super spiritual and super religious about this stuff. The only thing we care about is I'm getting to serve the Lord at my church. And I'm telling you, you better wake up and snap too, because the day that you get yelled at at your desk, you all of a sudden aren't thinking about serving the Lord. Well, you are, you're like, What meaneth this? They yelled at me. Well, it's a job too, yeah. And I don't think it's ever, I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to be yelling, but you better well realize that this is a job if you're gonna work in a church. This is not just going to a spiritual place where you're gonna pray in kumbaya throughout the day. You actually have to accomplish things and get things done, and when you don't, people will be upset and there's going to be problems, but then there's times where you don't even know what was going on, and we would find ourselves trying to figure out what was going on with our job. I mean, it's just it's wild. So I want to I want to get us here.

1 Peter 5 Shepherd Checklist

David McIntyre 50:10

I want to get us to 1 Peter 5, and I just want to spend a few minutes and I want to talk about if that if all of these things we've been talking about for the last couple of weeks are the way things should not be, then what should what should we be looking for in a pastor and a leader of a church? And I want to tell you that 1 Peter 5 uh makes it very simple. And and there's even more simplicity about this in the Bible. Verse 1 says, So I exhort the elders among you as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed. Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly. In other words, not under force or under her dress, but do it willingly as God would have you, not for a shameful gain. In other words, don't do it for money, but eagerly, do it eagerly, not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief shepherd appears, you'll receive the unfading crown of glory. Um, let me, I want to can I just reread that again? Again, I want to go to the Berean Study Bible in verse 2. It says, Be shepherds of God's flock that is among you, watching over them not out of compulsion, but because it is God's will, not out of greed, but out of eagerness, not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. That just matches right up with the scripture we just read. And when the chief shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away. There are three things here, really quickly, Phil, and then I'll see what you have to say here. Number one, do it out of don't do it out of compulsion, do it because you want to, that you feel led to do it, and because it's God's will. Yeah, don't ever take the leadership at a church or even in a ministry just because you're like, well, nobody else is gonna do it, so I guess I have to. That's not the reason to lead. That door may be open for somebody else to walk through, and you're not the one who should walk through that door. So leave things alone. But number one, not out of compulsion, but because you want to do God's will. Number two, not out of greed, but out of eagerness. In other words, out of an excitement, out of a desire and an appetite to do it, not just because you can get something from it. This has nothing to do with what you can get from it. It's about what you can bring to it. And then the third part is not lording over, in other words, not dominating over somebody, not taking the f again, it's the first place, the preeminence over others, but do it, listen here, by setting the example. Yeah, none of this is celebrity preaching, none of it is. All of it is leading the way by setting the Christ-based example on how to follow Christ. And the reward is guess what? When the real shepherd comes, not the real, but the chief shepherd, you're the under-shepherd. You're sitting in his place until he returns. And when he comes and sees the good work that you've done, he's going to give you a crown, and that crown will not be tarnished and it won't be taken away, it won't ever fade away. So you can have a shiny crown that will be with you always. Philip, what's your thought on that?

Phillip Rich 54:25

Yeah, I love I love this passage because it it should be like the manifesto for anybody who wants to get into ministry. Uh, to me, it's yeah, it's like make sure the motive is right. Make sure that you really desire to be a blessing to people. That's your main motivation, not I'm trying to become a celebrity, not I want to be important, not look what how much money I can make from this. None of that should motivate you, you know. And and it's interesting too, just as a side note, that Peter even said, Hey, don't do this for the money. Evidently, you know, there was money in being a minister at the time. You know, I thought that was interesting that that that hasn't changed much, you know. Um, but but the the thing is, it's like the way he said, don't lord it over God's heritage, don't lord it over, in other words, don't be heavy-handed with your authority and the way you exercise authority over God's heritage. Notice it in it's not your heritage, just the people that belong to it.

David McIntyre 55:27

Can I just say something real quickly there, Philip? I don't it's not, it's not your heritage, it's not your personal flock. This isn't your large group of followers. This isn't a social media uh function.

Phillip Rich 55:41

Yeah, absolutely. That's it. These are not your sheep, they are not your sheep. Jesus is the chief shepherd, and all the sheep belong to him. Yes, don't get it twisted. And and I I think I even said this last week, but you know, believe you me, you're replaceable. Okay. Uh nobody out here is indispensable, nobody out here is, you know, just this most wonderfully unique person that God can't find a replacement for. I promise you. The the whole Elijah principle comes into play here when he was in the cave and he was exhausted, and he said, God, you know, I'm the only one left who's serving you. And God said, Uh, dude, I've got 7,000 people out here that I have reserved that have not bowed their knee to Baal. So humble yourself, buddy. Right, right. And that's really what the rest of that passage in First Peter is about in First Peter 5. He said, You know, make sure you don't lord it over people, be humble. And then he goes a little further down in that passage and he says, Hey, everybody, just be subject to one another. You know, let's try that one on. Just be just submit to one another. He said, Because God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble, you know. So humble yourself under God's mighty hand. Do this from the right place. Make sure that you do it out of a genuine desire to see people grow in the Lord and become uh better followers of Christ. That should be the motivation. It should not be to gain a famous name or to build some wonderful conglomerate of ministries with 55 campuses and that that that should be those are those are simply byproducts that may or may not happen, right? You should be focused on the one mission of making sure that the people that God has assigned to your charge temporarily, because again, the chief shepherds are coming back one day, the people that God has assigned to your charge, that they're they're under your care for the time being, so that you can feed them, help them, help them grow in the Lord, help them understand more about the word, and that should always be the primary motivation.

David McIntyre 57:53

Yeah, and if you remember, if you go back to the beginning of this conversation, back when we started talking about the body of Christ, remember, this is all one body. We are not, we're not multiple bodies. That's right. We are one body, and you as a shepherd or you as a church leader, even you as a pew sitter, have a responsibility with a certain grouping of that particular body, but it's still one and it belongs to God, the pastor, nor you as a church pew sitter. You don't own the church, you don't own the people, you don't own the ministry. Look, you don't own the gifts within the congregation. All of those are given by God for his purposes.

Leadership Gifts Build The Body

David McIntyre 58:42

Let's look at Ephesians chapter four real quick. Um, I think that's kind of that's kind of important here for a moment.

unknown 58:55

Oh boy.

David McIntyre 59:00

If we look at that Ephesians, let me just get there really quickly, Ephesians chapter four, one of the things that it reminds us, and it doesn't just it doesn't just remind, it reminds every spiritual leader, of it reminds you of what your role and your responsibility in the church or with the church is. If we look at verse 11, it tells us, and he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds, the teachers, here's why, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness, in deceitful schemes, but rather speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into Him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which each with which it is equipped when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. Every one of those gifts of the uh uh uh those gifts of leadership that are given are for the benefit of the people. But some of them in this day and age are using their role as a benefit for themselves and not for the people, and that has to be turned back outwards. That means that they are supposed to be the servants of all, and all are the people, the body of Christ. But guess what? If they do their job, you are not easily deceived, you speak the truth and love, and you grow up into Christ, and you are well positioned so that when the day comes where Christ comes and takes us all, you know who you're gonna be so grateful for? All of those people who took the time to pour out into your life and do so in Christ with the right intent, with the right heart, with the right drive, just to see you make it to heaven, just to see you walk in Christ, just to see you winning in life in Christ Jesus. It it's just so good.

Phillip Rich 1:01:52

Good stuff, David. Good stuff, man. Praise God.

David McIntyre 1:01:56

Can I can I just do one more scripture?

Phillip Rich 1:01:58

Of course. Absolutely.

David McIntyre 1:02:01

I'm I'm gonna do two more, and I know we're running out of time. We're out of time, really. Um Ezekiel chapter 34.

Ezekiel’s Warning And God’s Rescue

David McIntyre 1:02:09

I want to give you a little bit of hope, if I might, and I'll just read a little bit of this, and I want to encourage you to go and read the whole chapter yourself. But Ezekiel chapter 34. Where there you go, Ezekiel. How you doing, brother? You know, we've been talking about these pastors and church leaders and people taking advantage, and some of you have been taken advantage of, some of you have been hurt, some of you have been confused, all of that good stuff. But I want to show you the hope that we have in Christ, and it's here in Ezekiel. And I'm gonna start at verse um, well, I think I'll I'll start at one and just just do a couple of verses because you'll see, you'll see what he's talking about quickly. It says, Then the word of God, the word of the Lord came to me talking about Ezekiel, saying, Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and tell them that this is what the Lord God says. Woe to the shepherds of Israel, who only feed themselves. Should not the shepherds feed their flock? You eat the fat, you wear the wool, and you butcher the fattened sheep, but you do not feed the flock. You have not strengthened the weak, you've not healed the sick, you've bound you haven't bound up the injured, bought back the strays, or searched for the lost. Instead, you've ruled them with violence and cruelty. They were scattered for lack of a shepherd, and when they were scattered, they became food for all the wild beasts. My flock went astray on all the mountains and every high hill. They were scattered over the face of all the earth, with no one to search for them or seek them out. Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord, as surely as I live, declares the Lord God, because my flock lacks a shepherd and has become prey and food for every wild beast, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock, but fed themselves instead, therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord. This is what the Lord says, Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will demand from them my flock, and remove them from tending the flock, so that they can no longer feed themselves, for I will deliver my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them. For this is what the Lord God says, Behold, I myself will search for my flock and seek them out. As a shepherd looks for his scattered sheep when he is among the flock, so I will look for my flock. I will rescue them from all the places to which they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. I will bring them out from the peoples, gather them from the countries, and bring them into their own land. I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in the settlements of the land. I will feed them in good pasture, and the lofty mountains of Israel will be their grazing land. There will lie there, they will lie down in a good grazing land. They will feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. He says, You benefit from the sheep, but you won't even care for them. You won't look for the lost. You you make prey of them and you send them out so that they are subject to whatever else is out there that will destroy them. And God says, I'm Done with you, shepherds. And here's what I'm gonna do: I'm gonna go out and find my sheep myself. And I'm gonna go and I'm gonna gather them from all the places that they're in. And when I gather them, I'm gonna feed them, I'm gonna heal them, I'm gonna bandage up their wounds, and then they're going to feel so secure with me that they're gonna lay down and rest, knowing that I've got them. And I believe the same thing is true in today's age. We have talked about how we've seen so much in many churches, but do you know what? Those are a bunch of lost sheep that are in places that God doesn't desire for them to be. And God is tired of these shepherds, and he will bring an end to them, and then he, through Christ, will gather his sheep back, and he's gonna take care of his own, as he always does, and restore them back to health. And then you'll see later on in this verse, he says, and then my shepherd David will come in. Well, we have a shepherd David, his name is Jesus Christ, and Christ will come in as a type and shadow there, and he will care for this flock and move us on to glory with him. Don't be thinking that just because some of this may be or may seem to be widespread, that God is unaware. He's very aware. God cares deeply for all of his children. Everybody who names the name of Jesus as their Lord and Savior, he cares deeply for you, and he won't leave you forever in a place where you're not supposed to be. He will come and he will rescue you and deliver you from the hands of those enemies that have tried to tear you apart and destroy your life. He's a good God and he will do it.

Phillip Rich 1:08:08

Amen.

David McIntyre 1:08:08

Philip, final thoughts?

Phillip Rich 1:08:10

Not beautiful. I just wanted to say uh great scripture to end on for sure. Absolutely.

David McIntyre 1:08:21

One last one.

Phillip Rich 1:08:24

Let's look at I thought that was the last one. Great scripture, period.

David McIntyre 1:08:32

It should be the last one, but I think this one, I think this one will be a New Testament joy for us.

He Must Increase And I Must Decrease

David McIntyre 1:08:39

Um I think it is third John, it is John chapter three, sorry. And in John chapter three, if we look at I believe it's verse twenty-six. It says, So John's disciples came to him and said, Look, Rabbi, the one who was with you beyond the Jordan, the one you testified about, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him. This is John's disciples talking to him about what they're seeing with Jesus. And John replied, A man can receive only what is given from given him from heaven. You yourselves can testify that I said, I am not the Christ, but I am sent ahead of him. The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom stands and listens for him and is overjoyed to hear the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. Hear this. He must increase, and I must decrease.

Phillip Rich 1:10:03

Amen. Amen.

David McIntyre 1:10:05

That should be every one of our positions as Christians. He must increase, and we must decrease. Good stuff.

Phillip Rich 1:10:17

Good stuff.

David McIntyre 1:10:19

We'll wrap it up there. John, any final thoughts from me?

Jon Dzyuba 1:10:26

I will say from the younger side. A lot of younger people when you when you're talking about I believe it was the scripture in First Peter. All these qualifications of a leader. When you don't have those, uh I've noticed that a lot of people notice, especially people who are younger, who are very not tolerant towards the chicanery of some leadership. Um they notice. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's not something you take lightly at all.

David McIntyre 1:11:05

Not at all.

Final Thoughts And Ways To Connect

David McIntyre 1:11:08

Alright, everybody, thanks for joining us tonight. Um, I feel like we just ended a little heavy, but that's okay. It's good heavy, it's not bad heavy. It was good, it's good heavy. He must increase, and all of us must decrease.

Phillip Rich 1:11:24

It should be weight off your shoulders.

David McIntyre 1:11:28

Yeah. And you know what? We'll all be celebrating once we get to our final party place, and we'll be able to celebrate together. And I think that's the best part. So, all right, everybody, don't forget to connect with us on social media. You can find us on TikTok, and you can find us on Instagram. We're also out there somewhere in uh Facebook land, I believe. And then don't forget that you can check out our website at BibleBrosbrew.com. Make sure you grab a book or uh at least an ebook there, and uh you can check out other episodes of the podcast, especially if you haven't heard the past couple of weeks as we've been talking about this and setting this up. Um man, we're so grateful that you guys have joined us. We love you, we appreciate you, and we thank you for your time. We know it's a meaningful thing for you to give your time to, and we thank you for it. All right, until next time, I'm David. Peace, Philip, that's John, and we're out of the way.