What Does the Bible Say About Celebrity Preachers? | Bible, Bros & Brew

The Bible speaks directly to celebrity preachers and celebrity Christians in Matthew chapter 23, verses 1 through 12, where Jesus warns religious leaders against seeking honor, control, and public praise, and in 3 John chapter 1, verse 9, where the apostle John confronts a man named Diotrephes for loving to be first. Scripture doesn't condemn a leader being well known — it warns against ministry that becomes about a person's platform instead of forming true followers of Jesus. David McIntyre and Phillip Rich call this "the bubble": a closed church culture built around one leader that quietly replaces real relationship with God and community with control, performance, and status.

David and Phillip continue their series on the church by tackling a problem hiding in plain sight: celebrity preachers and celebrity pew sitters. Drawing on years spent inside a celebrity-pastor-led ministry, they unpack how platforms get misused, why "the bubble" forms, and how ordinary church members — not just pastors — chase status inside the pews. It's an honest, sometimes funny, always convicting look at what happens when Christ's platform becomes a person's stage.

SCRIPTURE REFERENCED
Matthew chapter 23, verses 1 through 12; Third John chapter 1, verse 9

HOSTS
David McIntyre and Phillip Rich, with host/producer Jon Dzyuba

MINI FAQ
Q: What does the Bible say about celebrity pastors?
A: In Matthew 23, Jesus warns religious leaders who do their deeds to be seen by others and
love the place of honor. The problem isn't recognition — it's when ministry becomes about the
leader instead of about following Jesus.
Q: What is "the bubble" David and Phillip talk about?
A: It's the closed culture that forms when people build their whole spiritual and social life around one church or leader, losing connection to the wider body of Christ in the process.
Q: Is celebrity culture in the church only a "mega church" problem?
A: No. David and Phillip point out that small churches can carry the same drama and control
issues — sometimes worse, because of "big fish in a small pond" dynamics.

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Transcript

The Church Is People

David McIntyre 0:00

Over the last few weeks, we've talked about how we are the church and settled the fact that we are the church and we go to a place to gather. We also begin to discuss the concept of false doctrine and false teachers. We talked about how it wasn't just something to sneeze at, but something critically important that we have to both be aware of and to handle in our everyday lives. This week we're going to talk about another problem that we face as the body of Christ, and that is celebrity preachers and celebrity peaceers. Up next on Bible Bros and As we've been talking about, uh we've been talking about getting things right in the church and with getting ourselves right in and with the church. Just remember this. And you can't do that. That's not the way that it works. But when we talk about being spiritually responsible for yourself, we began to talk about this concept of the church. And what we started to realize and pointed out was that so many of us now are so used to calling the building the church that we forgot that we, the people, are the church. And Christ told us we were the church. Paul told us that we were the church. Peter told us that we were the church. So over and over again, the Bible talks about us being not only the church, but we are um also the body of Christ. We are also the temple of the Holy Spirit, we are the uh living stones, it says that we are. And it talks about how Christ is the head of the church, and that regardless of which one of those variations that you say, and remember, we are we are the body of Christ, and on top of being the body of Christ, we are also the temple of the living God. Why? Because the temple is where his spirit dwells, right? So we are the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit, and so we don't go to church, we are the church, and we go to a place and gather together as the church. And then as the church, we go out into the community, as the church, we reach out into other people, but we realize that we are the church individually as well as the church collectively, and each part is fitly joined together, uh, the Bible tells us, supplying to one another, supplying what the other needs. And so we have this concept of being the church, and we should not forfeit who we are for the sake of calling a place something, and then forgetting who we are in the process. Then that led us in to start talking about false doctrine and false teaching. And one of the things we got down to and we narrowed it down to over the last couple of weeks is that we need to be the kind of Christians that are not easily deceived. And the only way that we can be the kind of Christians that are not easily deceived, is that number one, we have to become students of God's word. For every Christian, uh there's no path to growth that does not include growing in your knowledge of God's word. You cannot just by showing up every day and just declaring you're a Christian, and even if you you can pray every day, but if you spend no time in God's word, the pathway to growth is short and very narrow for you. And it ultimately has an end point. You've got to know God's word for yourself. And I want to and I just want to add that church piece. Going to your gathering place and hearing the word taught is good. That's a very good thing, especially when you have a good pastor, a good pastoral team at your church that teaches the word. But that in and of itself is not enough to sustain the believer through his full week. You've got to spend that week studying and in your word, little by little by little, and you'll find that you grow exponentially over time. The other thing that you have to do is because you know your word, as you grow in your knowledge of the word, you'll be able to discern between right and wrong, and good and evil, and you'll be able to discern when people preach wild things in the pulpit, and you'll know and be able to discern at that point whether or not you should continue at that church or at that meeting in that event or whatever it may be. We've heard some wild stuff talked. Um, we were we talked about a pastor we heard right here in Atlanta where he talked about how Jesus was wrong 85% of the time. And by the time he got finished with that message, we realized the only thing wrong was him and wherever he got that message from. We've seen places where uh we had a person in the pulpit teaching that the things, some of the things that Jesus said were metaphysical, they weren't meant to be literal, taken literally. And it's like, how wild is that? How wild is that? He said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. How is that metaphysical? That couldn't be that's some of the clearest direction Jesus has given for us. So we've seen people and we're seeing them more and more, especially with the the more social media gets around, the more people feel like they have a pulpit and a platform in which to preach whatever they have discerned in their own minds is right. And let me tell you, that's a dangerous place, which leads us to where we're going today, and it's this concept of the celebrity preacher and the celebrity pew sitters. You see, people with platforms um have a very interesting responsibility and at the same time are in a very dangerous and precarious position. If you misuse the platform God gives you, you could find yourself tied up in ego, dishonesty,

Why Celebrity Preachers Are Risky

David McIntyre 7:45

and all kinds of stuff that you never may have intended to be. And that's not just the pastor, it's the people that sit in the pews. And I hope that you'll see as we talk about this stuff that it's not so much of this stuff isn't just about the pastor, it is about the people that are in the pews. Everybody has a responsibility for the health and wellness of this body and the health and wellness of our gathering places and that we call the church. I'm gonna stop right there, Philip. Join me here. What are you what are your thoughts and thinking?

Phillip Rich 8:25

I was thinking about this scripture in 3rd John. I don't know, um, John, if you could throw that up on the board for us real quick. It's in 3 John, there's only one chapter, so it's uh verse 9. And to me, this is like just an interesting little insight because John, you know, we're talking about the very, very beginning stages of the church, and already they were dealing with stuff like this. And I'm like, if you think about it, the church has had to deal with uh things like false doctrine, things like false teachers, and so forth from its inception. There's never been a time in the history of the church when they did not have to deal with these types of things in one way or the other. And there's always been times of like uh where maybe things kind of went off into error, and then all of a sudden a person would come and maybe some reformation of a of a kind would happen, or that type of thing. But um anyway, I wanted to read this third John verse 9. This is John talking. He said, I have written something to the church, but Diatrophes who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority. So if I come, I'll bring up what he's doing, talking wicked nonsense against us. Can you believe this is in the Bible? It said Diotrephes is talking wicked nonsense against them, and not content with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers and also stops those who want to and puts them out of the church. He's like, this dude obviously has a uh main character syndrome, yeah, he's thinking he's the center of the universe, and not only is he, you know, trying to get all the attention for himself, that's what it says. He likes to put himself first. I think the King James says uh he loves to have preeminence among us. So not only is he doing that and trying to be the center of attention and be in the spotlight, but then also he's basically sabotaging other people from having any advancement. So you're talking about somebody that's just in there, I mean, just like a loose canon. And I was thinking to myself, you know, this this is the kind of stuff we deal with in the church. Uh it's it's no era of the church has been immune to these things. And it's certainly no different now, especially when you've got a lot of people who love the attention that social media brings and things like that, like different preachers and so forth that that love to be seen of men, uh, long story short. But I just wanted to point that out that this is nothing new. Like if we're talking about uh you know preachers with celebrity syndrome or celebrity status, it's actually nothing new. This this dude was doing it back here when John was still alive. So there's a lot to be said for that.

David McIntyre 11:22

See, it didn't matter whether the church was somebody's house or whether it was a 7,000-seater building.

Phillip Rich 11:28

Come on.

David McIntyre 11:29

You know, it was never oh, can I read you something that's right along you? You kind of lined it right up, Philip. You know, as I was studying this, I this little note that I pulled out uh from the author, it says the central problem is not that a preacher becomes well known. Um, some biblical leaders were widely known. The problem begins when Christ's platform becomes the person stage, when ministry becomes personally driven, and when people are gathered around a leader rather than formed into the followers of Jesus.

Phillip Rich 12:09

Ooh, that's good, David. That's really good.

David McIntyre 12:13

And so, you know, it's it's interesting you say that because, you know, you can I can think of some wildly popular preachers at different levels. Um, you know, I for example, Billy Graham is probably the most one of the most widely known modern day preachers. Yeah, yeah uh out there. And, you know, to our knowledge, a good man who had done a lot. And then there's a lot of there's a lot of modern names out there that we could throw around right now, you know. People know Joel Osteen, people know T. D. Jakes, you know, these they know the they know TBN and stuff like that. Um but you begin to you begin to see a differentiation between what like for example Billy Graham was doing versus, you know, another one that I really enjoyed, um, Hercy Sproul.

SPEAKER_05 13:21

Right, right.

David McIntyre 13:22

Um, you know, he had a well, well known platform, uh, a good preacher. Um and but wasn't what was controversial about him was the hard stances that he would take on the accuracy of the word, not stances he would take on the foolishness of the day. He didn't give a hoot about the foolishness foolishness of the day, and that that showed in his ministry. But then you have people who always seem to be dogged by some personal drama, and it follows them everywhere you go. Now you also have to realize that the reality is we live in a celebrity culture world. Everybody wants to be an Instagram social media influencer, influencer. There was a time, especially in the I'd say late 80s, but really it was the it was the 90s and 2000s, where you know, every preacher thought he needed to be on TV. You know, and so you had them, you had him running the TV and and getting on networks like nobody's business. And you know, you can't help but wonder how many of them were doing it because they wanted to spread the word, how many were doing it because they wanted to be listed amongst the famous. And so, you know, the Bible doesn't necessarily use, we're using the term celebrity pastors or celebrity preacher or celebrity pew members, but the Bible speaks more directly and repeatedly against spiritual leaders or church members who crave attention, who crave status, who crave applause, who crave influence, and they want control. Yeah, and let me tell you, that's all flesh.

SPEAKER_05 15:23

That's right, man.

David McIntyre 15:25

That is all flesh that you're contending with there.

SPEAKER_05 15:29

Yeah.

David McIntyre 15:29

Um I want to get into Matthew chapter 23, but before we jump into Matthew 23, let's first find out what's in the cup.

What’s In The Cup Break

David McIntyre 15:38

All right, I didn't forget the what's in the cup section. I just wanted to hit off with where we were talking a little bit. Let's touch in on that cup a minute and then we'll bounce back. Uh Philip, what are you drinking today?

Phillip Rich 15:51

I hate that I forgot to bring the bag, but I'm drinking Peregrine. It's uh their El Salvador blend. I think well it may not be a blend, but it's El Salvador, and it's so good, man. Um, and I I wanted to highlight again the Peregrine travel mug because this thing has come in handy so many times. And I'm just a big fan of uh the whole operation there at Peregrine, and I wanted to point this out not that I'm a official spokesman for Peregrine, I feel like it most of the time. But uh but they have opened a new location in Dallas or in the Fort Worth area. That's pretty cool. Oh, nice. Yeah, so they're in Colorado and in uh Dallas, Fort Worth. So that's pretty awesome. Shout out to the peaks at Peregrine.

David McIntyre 16:33

Congratulations, Peregrine, on that Dallas location.

Phillip Rich 16:37

Yeah, man.

David McIntyre 16:37

I think that's awesome, and I hope it goes super well for you.

Phillip Rich 16:40

Yeah, absolutely.

David McIntyre 16:42

Um I know it will. The way they do business, I've I've enjoyed, and I think that'll be a a fresh voice in the Dallas coffee market.

Phillip Rich 16:51

Yeah, man. For sure. How about you, Dave?

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Or John, I'm glad you asked. I also might have forgotten to bring uh a cup with or not a cup, a bag with me. However, uh this is a brew from Lidl. It's like the the maple bourbon light roast. I believe it comes in. This one came in a K cup, but come on now. It's I know. I it's not fall season just yet, but August is approaching us. I also really like a lot of fall flavors. Uh please don't shoot me. Um that's what that's what's in my cup, exactly. That's how it feels like right now. Um, but the maple bourbon is good. Uh the light roast is uh it's appropriate for the afternoon. Uh man, I just I'm a huge fan, especially with maple. Sorry, I'm sorry, I was got an intruder in my cup. But yeah, it's a it's a really nice flavor. I'm a huge favor fan of maple anyway. So we're just just I'm just prepping for the season. That's all.

Phillip Rich 18:04

Nicely done, John. And I want to say too, that was a very fall-themed mug from what I gathered there. You can tell me.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Yes and no, it's actually from Epcot. I don't know if we've ridden the Guardians of a Galaxy ride there, but that's exactly what I pulled. That's exactly what my hat is, too.

Phillip Rich 18:22

Okay. No, I haven't remembered that ride.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Okay. Nicely done. I had to appropriately outfit my mug with my hat. Hey, man. You got to coordinate.

David McIntyre 18:37

Exactly. Alright, David, have a day, man. God forgive you, Philip. Alright, today I am drinking a uh actually it's a very simple cup. This is from McDonald's McCaffey line. It's their McLear coffee. Um I oddly enough decided to just give it a try because I would not normally drink McDonald's coffee. And um this cake cup is really good, so it's a great little simple breakfast kind of blend for the morning. And it was also nice to try to get a good cup of coffee because I want to tell you I've been in Cleveland for the last week, and I didn't have a good cup of coffee any day I was there. Oh my god. So it's it's been rough. I'm happy to have a cake up compared to the and compared to the cake crap that is happening.

Phillip Rich 19:46

Oh my goodness.

David McIntyre 19:48

All right, that's what's in the cup. Let's jump back into our conversation. So uh, John, if

Matthew 23 And Being Seen

David McIntyre 19:55

you don't mind, let's pull up Matthew chapter 23. You know, um that that statement about you know about that how the Bible doesn't necessarily speak speak to celebrity preachers, but speaks about leaders or church members who crave attention, status, applause, influence, and control. And one of the ones that seems to come up a lot in the Bible is this concept of needing to have attention. Right? Needing to be the center of things and for people not just be the center of things, but for people to see you and to see you acting and behaving in a spiritual manner. And for some reason people thought um that that would be oh well, let's just read it a little bit because we're gonna look at it in two places, and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. When you look at Matthew chapter 23, and we look at uh verse one, I'm just gonna pull that up over here, John, so I can read it. There you go. It says, then then Jesus said, starting at verse one. It said, then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, the scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat. So, in other words, they had a place of authority. So do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens hard to bear and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others, for they make their philosophers. Lactories broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feast and the best seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the marketplaces, and being called rabbi by others, but you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers, and call no man your father on earth, for you have one father who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. So we see right here Jesus laying out, he's really laying the wood here, if we're being honest. And notice who he's not talking to. Right. But I can guarantee you there's some around.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Yeah.

David McIntyre 23:11

Because just remember, one of the reasons why they went after Jesus was because of the numbers of because of the large crowds he gathered. They hated that he gathered large crowds of people. And not because it was bad, but because they wanted it, and they never drew the same kinds of large crowds of people like Jesus did.

SPEAKER_05 23:37

That's right.

David McIntyre 23:38

And so you're sitting here, and as we look at the beginning of this, we see that he says, Do what they say, but don't do what they do. That gives me the impression, Philip, that maybe the benefit is that they'll at least read the word in the synagogue. And Jesus is saying, do what they say, but don't live like they live. Because in other words, they're living the opposite. Jesus wouldn't say this if they weren't living the opposite way of what scripture says to do.

Phillip Rich 24:19

Yeah.

David McIntyre 24:20

Am I do am I tracking, Phil?

Phillip Rich 24:22

Absolutely. Absolutely. What's interesting too is that you know, I think there's one of the Bibles that I have where you know how they have this little little headers for different passages in the Bible. And I think this one in one of my Bibles it says Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for their hypocrisy. And and that's really kind of the core of hypocrisy is not only are you saying something but doing something else, but also you're holding people to a standard that you yourself don't even keep, you know. So it's like you're condemning others, and you're also claiming to be, you know, to to have uh, you know, have the all the you've arrived, you know, you've completely figured all the spiritual things out, and you despise those who aren't as high and lofty as you are, right? Um, but that that's kind of the essence of hypocrisy is you know, you you're saying one thing but doing another, and not even keeping the word. That's why Jesus, like you said, David, that's why he told the crowd, he was like, Hey, do what they tell you to do because it's coming from the scripture, right? But don't do what they're actually doing because they're not doing the word. You know, he said that these people draw near to me with their mouth, but their heart is far from me. Man, not a great place

Control And Crushing Religious Burdens

Phillip Rich 25:40

to be.

David McIntyre 25:41

No, not at all. Now, if you look at verse four, this one also, you know, this one right here, this one bothers me, and rightfully so it should bother everybody. But it's one of the it's it's kind of when you see the pattern of how and let me let me just give you a little history. Philip and I both have spent some time we were there together in a church that we would definitely qualify as a celebrity celebrity pastor led church. 100%. Um, I don't know that he always wanted it to be that way, but that's the way it was. Um and so and being in that circle of churches and preachers, you begin to see it across the whole board of them. You you beg you begin to see that there was a pattern that we were seeing over and over again. And one of the other things that's secretly that's never ne necessarily out front is this concept of control. Oh boy. Oh boy. Because one of the things I can tell you from every pastor that I've seen um and personally known of who was guilty of this type of behavior, they were some of the most controlling people you have ever met. Hands in every piece, every department, every window, every nook and cranny, and controlling and manipulating and tweaking and changing things so that it would be exactly as they desired for it to be. And so, you know, and it helped to tell it helped to tell a certain story, but it wasn't necessarily a true story all the time. It was a story that kept the arc of the lie going higher, the arc of the deception going higher, but wasn't necessarily the truth. And so you think about control, and then you look at verse four in this same chapter, and it talks about how um they tie up heavy burdens hard to bear and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with one with their finger. You know, I you you see oh gosh, Philip, they're just I've seen these types of pastors give spiritual advice and spiritual instruction to people. You know, go back home and and sit on your couch and spin around seven times and then wait for three days, and at noon on the third day, you're gonna find a little jackrabbit skipping across your backyard. You're to catch that jackrabbit, you're to speak the word over it seven times, and would just okay. I know I exaggerated just a little bit. Oh god, uh, and I don't know where that came from, but you know, just laying the hardest things on people, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phillip Rich 29:18

Hey, and David, I would say this. I'm sorry, go ahead, David. No, no, no, you're fine. I would say this too, like even when it comes to certain spiritual activity, you know, like if you're if you're not praying for an hour every day, you're not tuned in with God, you know, and and things like that, or you know, you you gotta pray for X amount of time in the spirit, then you gotta confess you know, umpteen amount of scriptures, you know, and you gotta read certain amount of chapters every day, and then don't forget you also have to be at church every single time those doors are open. So don't you dare miss a service, and then you find out your whole life is being consumed with spiritual activity, and you never even have time to get out and change the world like they're saying that you should be doing, you know, because you're always can we can we just talk about that?

David McIntyre 30:06

Because you know what? I would argue the same thing is true. We're gonna have a little side road here, everybody, but it's it's on the it's on the same topic topic. The same is true at most people's at a lot of people's jobs. Uh not most people, but a lot of people's jobs, as is true in the church. And you just said it. I remember how we would get reamed out on a Sunday morning after a conference or event at the church if enough people didn't show up.

SPEAKER_05 30:35

Yeah.

unknown 30:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:36

Yeah.

David McIntyre 30:37

And that that Sunday message, that Sunday sermon may very well be basically the threat of a biblical curse if you don't show up for the next conference. You know, but I would say that you're so right, Philip, that you you can be put in a position where you have your the demand is that you have to be at church. Every every time the doors are open, you were there. You even hear people now who will tell you that that is part of their testimony.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Oh my goodness.

David McIntyre 31:09

That they were there every time the doors of the church opened. They were in children's ministry while their mom, you know, she sang on the choir on Tuesdays. We had Bible study on Wednesdays. On Monday night, we had church potluck. On Thursday night, we had the deacons' meeting. Uh, you know, on Friday night we had our second Bible study that week. And then on Saturdays was the only day of the week we didn't have something, but we were preparing the food Saturday that was gonna be in for Sunday or whatever it may be. And then Sunday we'd be in the church from nine o'clock in the morning until two o'clock in the afternoon, and then had to come back for the night service. And it's no different than when you're at work and you're scheduled, and we've been in the same position too, together, oddly enough, where you were scheduled meeting after meeting, from the time you hit the door in the morning until almost the end of the day, they stop about three o'clock in the afternoon because at that point everybody's bent out anyway. And you never can get anything done. What can you do? What do you get done for Christ if you are so wrapped up in this thing that you gotta be at the church every moment that it's open? Right, right, right, and and part of walking out this Christian life is that you develop relationships with brothers and sisters in the Lord, and you serve and you help one another, and you're connected. You're connected. How can you be connected when the only way you know somebody is y'all show up for Bible study the same night, you sit across the room from another, you recognize each other when you see each other and be like, hey sister, or when y'all walk across each other in the grocery store, but outside of that, you don't have a clue who they are. I mean, it's just it's just the wildest thing. You were you're right, Philip.

Phillip Rich 33:14

Yeah, it it it's been it was I was thinking about it back when I was uh working on staff at this particular ministry. And David, I know you you can you can say had the same testimony, I'm sure, but um there was a time I remember uh I would I worked there full time, first of all, worked at the church full time. Then let's say I I took a typical week Monday night, I went to men's fellowship. Tuesday night, I taught a leadership class on campus at the church. Wednesday night was Bible study, so I had to be there for Bible study. Thursday night we had maybe that was the one night that I didn't go to church. Friday night was Friday night Bible study, Saturday morning was church prayers. Everybody came to the church and prayed in the morning time, and then of course, uh Sunday was the church service, and we had more than one service. So uh and I thought to myself, the amount of free time I actually have, dude. I don't even know if I can count it on two hands the number of hours I had per week that were free. You know what I mean? Right, and I mean, and I remember thinking because we were always encouraged to you know, let God use you to change people's lives or whatever, you know, whatever it might be. And I'm like, but I'm always here, I can't do anything else. I mean, I I can't be in three places at one time, you know.

David McIntyre 34:40

So but don't you know, Philip? Oh gosh, I know we're so off the subject, but we're still we're still on the subject, we're still on the subject, but you know, that's that's what that's what I call creates the bubble that people start living in.

Phillip Rich 34:59

Yes,

The Bubble That Church Life Builds

Phillip Rich 35:00

yes, and they live in this bubble, you know.

David McIntyre 35:04

There was a long time where, you know, I just assumed that everybody knew who my pastor was. Right. Biggest name happening in my circle. Well, well, my circle was about a half a mile a mile wide circle in a certain town here in Georgia, where his name was spoken of in in whispers and hushes. And he was anointed. And don't touch him, don't look him in the eye, you know, and that and some of that kind of stuff, right? And and now we we play and we laugh about some of it now because it wasn't the fool, some of this wasn't the foolishness of the pastor, it was the foolishness of the people in the pews.

SPEAKER_05 35:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David McIntyre 36:00

Because un unknown st unbeknownst to him, they were making decisions and choices for him, concerning him, and about him, that they were communicating and sharing to other people as if it were law, and if you didn't know any better, you would believe it, and you would just simply walk that out. Yeah, yeah, and so, but man, you just sit there and you're in this bubble, and you're thinking everybody thinks exactly like you think, and feel about your church, and everybody knows who your church is. And one day I asked one woman, said, Well, do you go to church locally? I said, Well, I go to church here, and she says, Oh, well, who's the pastor there? And I said, So-and-so, so-and-so, and she was like, never heard of him. And I was like, What do you mean you never heard of him? What are you talking about? And see, even me, even me at that point, that was part of the evidence that I had put him in the wrong place in my life. It was very he was already on a pedestal, a pedestal that he could not manage and did not belong on.

Phillip Rich 37:22

That's right.

David McIntyre 37:24

And so the bubble just got bigger and bigger and bigger. And when you're in the bubble, it's all about your church, it's all about what's going on there. When you see strangers, it's just a you know, at our time, it was about here here's a tape. Here's a message, listen to this, it'll bless your life. But it was never like going to lunch with somebody and having a conversation. It was never about, you know, getting to know people and all that, even though that was espoused when the reality, like Philip said, came to bear. And then here's the other thing, Philip. I was listening to you talk. You're supposed to also raise up a family in that.

Phillip Rich 38:08

Right. Goodness gracious, yeah. How could you? I know it was tough. I mean, my my family hardly saw me. I'm just being honest, they they hardly ever saw me, dude. That was I left in the morning around 7 30 a.m. Didn't get back to 6 30, 7 p.m. Most of the time. And by that time, kids are going to bed, you know, stuff like that's happening. So it's like, uh or at least getting ready to go to bed, and we're trying to wind down to prepare for the next day to do it all over again. So it's like, dude, dude, uh it was I don't even know if there was a such thing as a work life balance at the time or or whatever, church life balance, if you want to call it that, you know. Um and and uh somebody said this too. I forgot exactly who said it, but it really struck it stuck with me since I heard it. They said a lot of Christians hide from life in church, and I was like, ooh, a lot of Christians hide from life in church. Uh church does become their world, and like you said, David, they they enter into this bubble, and it's amazing that maybe some of the things that make sense inside the bubble, when you get outside the bubble, they don't make sense at all.

David McIntyre 39:28

Philip, can you just can you while you're having while you're saying this, can you do one other thing after you finish saying it? Yes, talk about when the bubble busts, because that's an important piece of this puzzle.

Phillip Rich 39:40

Absolutely, man. Yeah, so being inside the bubble, again, things that make sense, things that seem normal, normal, you don't realize that you've been inculcated into this culture of your church, whatever it might be. Uh, I find this most common with mega churches, uh, you know, large large ministries with thousands of people, uh, they can become kind of a a society of to themselves, you know, and a society unto themselves, I guess. And when that happens, uh people buy into a certain it's kind of an undercurrent that's constantly going on that you don't realize is happening, but it's an undercurrent of the way we do things, you know, and and it's funny because we sit there, especially like if it's uh quote unquote non-denominational. Some people think that that means there's no type of culture like there would be to a Lutheran church or a Presbyterian or even a Catholic Episcopalian, whatever. They think that there's no culture to it because it's non-denom. And it's like, no, dude, that's its own culture, it has its own culture. There's still this way we do things, you know. This is the way we go to church, this is the way you know that kind of thing. So, but David, after a while, wow, if you ever step outside the bubble, or or let's say these certain things happen, like happened with David and I, eventually, through a wild series of events for both of us, you know, in different ways, but we both kind of came to the realization I gotta get out of here, you know, it got clearer and clearer, and the more I tried to stay, because I was trying to be loyal to that pastor, the more I tried to stay, it got harder and harder to the point that I physically suffered. I I I nearly I mean, I was in a bad place. Um, and so it was almost like I got I can't I went into the pressure cooker after a while, and God was like, Okay, are you more loyal to him than you are to me? And I was like, Oh, yeah, okay. So then all of a sudden you step outside the bubble or are you you transition away from the bubble and you start realizing, wow, number one, God's a lot bigger than that place that I've been a part of for so long. And you can know God in a different way than how maybe that place teaches that He is, you know, and of course, not outside of what the Word says, but sometimes you know there can be a slant on the way the word is taught that you don't realize until you're outside that bubble, you know. So um, but I'll tell you this, I know you probably have the same experience, David. It's like I had to go through a time of like decompressing, getting out of that bubble, you know, and and learning how to be a normal person again, learning how to be a normal Christian again, you know. Um, it was it was a quite a transition, but and then after a while, like let's say that you've been away from the bubble for a long time and you start looking at it from the outside in now, you can remember what it was like to be there, but you can also see now, oh my gosh, I can't believe I participated in some of that, you know. So it's it's wild.

David McIntyre 43:07

It's true, and you know, the other thing is when the when the bubble breaks, because I know for me, I I'll never forget it. It was Ravi Zacharias that that poked the first hole in the bubble. Yeah, because I happened to just turn on the TV and I I just happened he happened to be on. And so I listened to him. And after I listened to him, I was like, wow, he is really, really good. And I heard God say something very distinct. He's like, Did you think that in your bubble that was where all only good preachers come from?

SPEAKER_05 43:51

Right.

David McIntyre 43:52

He's like, There are good preachers all over the place.

SPEAKER_05 43:57

Yeah.

David McIntyre 43:58

And I was like How can this be, Lord? I've given my life to the bubble. You know, it's it's the wildest thing because that little prick in the bubble began to be the undoing of the whole thing for me. And I began to seek out and find and listen to more. I began listening more of Ravi Zacharias, actually. And um, and for those of you who know who he is and know about his history, I separate his teaching and well, let me be careful about how I say this. I can I can I can discern his teaching from some of the lifestyle choices that were revealed as he was passing. And I still honor the because he he was not a false teacher, he was a teacher who wasn't living according to the word that he spoke. In other words, he was teaching he was teaching a purity and teaching about for when he did teach that, you know, but he was living a lifestyle that didn't agree with the teaching of the word. Um, but um anyway, my point is is that when that bubble started fizzling down around, I began it opened me up to begin to see that there are so many others who are teaching the word and that doesn't exist, uh, between about 10 to 12 preachers that were authorized in my bubble.

SPEAKER_05 45:52

Right. Right, right.

David McIntyre 45:54

And then when the world begins to open up like that to you, and you see things, you'll never go back to seeing things the same way. And and once again, it wasn't all the preacher's fault. Because again, it was me who put him on a pulpit, it was me who put him on a pedestal, it was me who was, for lack of a better word, and I know this is strong, but I want you to hear it strong. It was me who was worshiping at his altar. Wow. And so, but at the same time, I'll tell you that we are to this day grateful for him because he taught us some of the foundational stuff that makes us who we are. And I think it was, I think it started off by being uh more us than him, but over time, as certain people gathered around him, it became a he became some of the caricature that um that existed. And so um we we say all that to say, you know, as we look back here and wrap up and think about what Matthew 23 is trying to tell us do what they say, but don't do what they do. And it requires us to hear the word from them, to understand, but don't live like that. Live like what the word says.

Performing For Status In The Pew

David McIntyre 47:30

And then verse five, I'll say this remember why they do what they do. The celebrity preacher, the celebrity peace sitters, and my gosh, we had we told you last week about the parking lot prophet. Yes at our church. And by the way, they did deal with him eventually. They told him he couldn't be putting all that good no on people out in the parking lot anymore. So uh he got he kept coming to the church, but he got banned from his his sidewalk sessions. Um and then I think he eventually left. And um, so but there were so many people inside of the church building who were also performing.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Right.

David McIntyre 48:22

And there were some who were like, you know, can I tell you the most humble person that I've ever met, one of the most humble people I've ever met and seen, was the one who had the right to be a celebrity and didn't, and that was uh an older woman. She was over our usher board at that church, and she also happened to be the pastor's mother, and she was one of the humblest um because she also worked for me in my department at the church, and there was never a hint, not a sniff, not a stench of do you know who I am?

SPEAKER_05 49:09

Right.

David McIntyre 49:10

There was a whatever you ask me to do, I'm gonna do that. I like doing this, I like being here, I like you, I like this whole thing. You just tell me what to do, and that's what I'm gonna do. And that's what she would always say, and that's exactly what she did, how she lived. She didn't lord her position of authority over me, she didn't lord who she was over anybody on the team ever, not I that I ever saw, uh, unless there was a real wrong being done, then she'd be like, oh no, that's Dunkama, that's Dunkma live. Yeah. And so I I saw such a great picture of humility in her that could be learned from. But so many others of us, so many people wanted to lead certain ministries because they wanted to be seen. They thought that would put them closer so they could ride on his coattails. And, you know, they wanted to be put in this position and that position all so they could either grow their own ministries because it, you know, all of a sudden everybody was called to preach. Everybody, nobody was called to a ministry uh uh of of helps and works. We are everybody was called to preach, right? And uh everybody was dreaming about the day that the pastor just came out of nowhere and said, Um, I'm not feeling so well. The Lord told me to pick you to preach the word today. You know, people dreaming about those moments.

SPEAKER_05 50:44

Oh, yeah.

David McIntyre 50:45

Everybody wanted to be a celebrity, everybody wanted to be that person, so we were all out of order in the wildest sense.

Phillip Rich 50:58

Oh my goodness.

David McIntyre 50:59

But I just I just tell you, it says they do all their deeds to be seen by others, for they make their phylacteries broad, their fringes long, they love the place of honor at feast and the best seats in the synagogues. Man, do you man, you had no idea how early people would get to church just so they could sit down front.

Phillip Rich 51:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David McIntyre 51:24

And here's the big secret about this black mega church is if you were white, you could come whenever you want to and glide right down front because then kick somebody kick somebody out and put you in just look good in front of the cameras.

Phillip Rich 51:44

That is a couple times. It's like sure, come right down here, brother Philip.

David McIntyre 51:56

Oh man, and then the line people are open.

Phillip Rich 52:03

Yes, yes, and inevitably during the sermon, there'd be a cameraman coming in and zooming in on me like reading right here, making screen, looking in, reading the Bible and looking the part.

David McIntyre 52:18

My camera comes on, you gotta look the part, you gotta look the part. Oh my god. Oh my god, but now you guys have got to ask yourself out there what did any of that have to do with becoming a disciple of Christ? What did any of that have to do with following Jesus? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was all just it was all just games and foolishness and and positioning and posing and looking like you're something being seen and heard and all of that. And in the end, most of it meant absolutely nothing.

Phillip Rich 53:04

It's all going right.

David McIntyre 53:06

It was empty.

Phillip Rich 53:09

Yep. Yep.

David McIntyre 53:11

Lord help us for the things that we're doing in our gathering places, yeah. Lord help us for the way that we're mistreating the opportunities that he is giving us to grow and to mature in him and to walk uprightly before him.

Small Churches Can Be Just As Bad

David McIntyre 53:35

So much foolishness, and don't get it twisted thinking that this kind of stuff only happens in the mega church. Right. So many people you hear and read these stories, mega church this, mega church that, megachurch this. Well, I've been to the small churches, and the small churches are just as ugly, if not uglier.

Phillip Rich 54:01

Dude, there I mean, look, a lot of times they it's a little bit worse because people suffer from the big fish in the small pond syndrome there, right? Right. And so you've got somebody who well, maybe some bodies who are keeping their thumb down on everybody because they know that you know it's it's easier to do with less crowd. So you it you're right, David, it's not relegated to the mega churches. There's plenty of small churches that have just as much drama. I mean, some of its stuff is out of control, it ain't but you know, 50 people going to the whole church.

David McIntyre 54:39

So I've seen them fighting over whose food is better. Whose particular egg salad ought to be bought that week? Because y'all know Sister So-and-so got roaches in her house, and we don't need none of that kind of food in our houses. They uh they will slander and hurt one another just to be the chosen one. And the things that they'll put a pastor through sometimes are unheard of. And then, not to mention, even in the small churches, it's where it becomes even more clear, some of them can't even hear meat teaching because they're still stuck in the milk.

SPEAKER_05 55:21

That's right. That's right. That's good.

David McIntyre 55:24

So we're talking about a church issue, we're not talking about a type of church issue. Yeah. I've been in the big ones, I've been in the small ones, and I've been in medium ones throughout my life. And you know what? People are people no matter where you go, and people are trying to do what people do in different places. But because it's people, it's also why you have compassion.

SPEAKER_05 55:52

That's right.

unknown 55:53

That's right.

David McIntyre 55:54

So it's it's been a wild one, Philip.

Phillip Rich 55:59

Yes, it has.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

This

Motives For Church And Real Witness

SPEAKER_00 56:05

is mostly for the audience. Um I I want to ask, because you're y'all talking about the bubble, y'all. Y'all are talking about something that stuck out to me is that you're you go to church to run away. Um I was that person. Thank God I ran to church because I would, you know, I was running away from some home issues that uh, you know, again, I'm really grateful that I ran to church because I did learn a lot there, but I also very quickly uh let church become, like you just mentioned, my every day. If I wasn't at school, if and I wasn't at work, I was at church. Um and so what I want to bring up is a question to you or the audience, whoever's watching, what is it that's if you find yourself running towards this bubble, what is it that's doing that? Are you running there because you feel like you fit in, or are you running away from something? So you're just going to church because you, you know, that's like a place where you feel safe. I mean, which is fine. Again, generally it's fine, but is this bubble that you're in why what is it that that's pulling you in there or what is it that's pushing you into there? And ask God to deal with it. I know that sounds harsh, but that's like not to deal with it in a bad way, but just uh there's some things that you can ask God to expose, and I think it might help definitely crack the case on your personal bubble situation.

Phillip Rich 57:39

If that does that make sense what I'm saying, it does, John. Yeah, it does. Because it's a question of motive a lot of times. Like, what's what's the motive for going? And um, that's one thing that we learned. I know David and I, like he said, we've we've dealt with churches of all sizes and all types, and you do learn there's a you know, folks have different, wildly different motives for going to church a lot of times, or going to the gathering place, I should say. Um, and you realize that interestingly enough, getting the word and learning about God isn't always on the top of the list, you know. Sometimes it's because it's the place where they can thrive socially, right? So they go to church for that reason, and um, or it's a place where they all their friends are, nothing wrong with having friends and not say anything like that, but um, but you should always make sure you keep the the main thing the main thing. That's what we're trying to say.

David McIntyre 58:34

Yeah, and John, I I would ja I would I would tweak just something you said, and this is just me being picky. Um nobody ever runs to a bubble. They run to their church, uh the they run to a church, they run to a fellowship, they run to a place where they can they can either hide or find help. Uh it becomes a bubble when you get so tied up in it that you lose sight of everything that's happening around, and all of your focus becomes whatever is going on in that facility, in that ministry, in that place, and then before you know it, you find yourself in a bubble disconnected from everything outside of it. So you build that bubble, it doesn't necessarily start that way, but then we know that some places are built for you to create the bubble. Now that you're here with us, here's your six-day-a-week schedule.

SPEAKER_03 59:38

Right.

David McIntyre 59:40

So even the Lord rested, but we do have a soccer program on Saturday. So you know, do you just just be careful of that? And it, you know, it is good to run to help. That's actually that's actually a somewhat mature thing to do, to run for godly help.

Phillip Rich 1:00:02

Yeah.

David McIntyre 1:00:03

Um, but then where the problem become comes is when we don't accept the fact that we cannot change people, not even in the church. God is the change agent, He will be the one to transform lives. You know, Paul said, you know, I I watered, I planted Apollos watered, but God gets the increase. So we can never put ourselves in the place of God getting the increase because none of us really understand exactly how everything grows like it does.

Phillip Rich 1:00:40

Right.

David McIntyre 1:00:40

We just know that it does.

Phillip Rich 1:00:43

Yep.

David McIntyre 1:00:43

But God knows, He knows the chemical mixture, he knows the the you know, the photosynthesis that happens here, and how this piece comes there, and how it grows up there, and how that thing that looks like a flower bud is actually the fruit of the stem, and from that it grows. God created all that, not us. So the moment we forget that we are not the ones that do the changing is where we begin to have a problem.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. That's good. I might tweak tweak what I said because I do I 100% agree with you. I think I'm speaking for myself because I know that I ran to church to I didn't know it in the moment, but I ran away from certain issues, and for me personally, I know I didn't deal with those issues at the church. I just kind of used church as an ex as an excuse to the point where I actually burned myself out. Like you'd mentioned earlier, uh a few minutes ago.

David McIntyre 1:01:47

Uh then you made the you made the church your bubble.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:51

Exactly. Exactly. And I feel like I'm like example number one. I'm like, and I learned that mistake way too late.

David McIntyre 1:01:59

I feel like well, I I'll tell you, and I know we're way past time, so this is gonna be a little extra long today. But there is an opposite that happens too, and that is you can still go to church, but say you'll never get involved in all of that ever again. And you can find yourself sitting on the outskirts of your church for the longest time, never fully engaged, never fully connected to the life of the church, and so you're missing opportunities there on that side of the puzzle as well, because there is a there is a healthy place. Um, there are healthy churches, and there's a healthy way to connect with your church to grow, develop friendships and relationships, and those things grow outside of the church building, and then you guys find that you're out, you're not only in your church, but a good healthy church desires for you to be out in your community making a difference with your neighbors, making a difference with your kids, making a difference in your schoolyards, and that you know that ooh, uh okay. I just want to say this thing too. Along those lines, that's part of what we as Christians have to get back to. You know, I hear so many Christians scared about the Muslims right now, taking over this area and that area and all that, and we need legislation. Um, I don't know how much legislation is going to change whether or not people's lives are converted.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:33

Right, right.

David McIntyre 1:03:35

You might be able to say, we'll never have Sharia law in this area, but part of the reason I believe the framers of this country were not afraid to have anybody come here and worship whatever God they wanted to was because they believed in the God of the Bible. And they knew that if they walked out the Christianity of the Bible, that it would be attractive to people, and they could win over whoever came into this country. That is not the fight mindset that we have in our nation right now, that we have to live. Remember, the lives that we live live as believers is magnetic. The love that we show one another, the way that we treat one another, how we care for and are there for one another, all of that speaks. And there are too few of us speaking right now to make Islam a non-issue in our country. And because there are too few of us speaking, Islam is speaking louder, and it's giving the impression that it is something that we all know that it's not.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:51

That's right.

David McIntyre 1:04:52

And so we've got to, we've got to change, we've got to, we've got to get out of this stupid era that we're in with the with the church. That's truly the church. And we've got to get into our healthy place with God.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:10

That's right.

unknown 1:05:10

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

Good stuff.

David McIntyre 1:05:12

Close us out, John. Close us out.

Final Challenge And Where To Follow

SPEAKER_00 1:05:15

Uh wonderful episode. If you stuck around this long, I just want to say thank you. Because there's more. Just please, please come back. If you want to see the next episode drop, uh it's simple. Follow us, turn on that notification bell. Please, you want to know when the next episode comes out because this conversation is only gonna go deeper and deeper and deeper. I wish I could show y'all how much more there we intended to talk about. Um, please don't forget to check us out on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, or on Rumble. We're on what what else? We're on everything. Dude, just look up Bible Bros and Brew. Um, correct me if I'm if I'm wrong, it's BibleBrosandbrew.com. A N-D-D-R-E-W. There we go. Um, because you'll you'll find our devotional there. You'll find um a lot of us just ways to just connect with us. So if you have any questions, suggestions, uh, any any conversational topics that you want covered, uh, we're not scared. I promise. You know, we serve a very, very powerful God. Um I'm not we're we're not scared of your questions. And please, we want to be able to be involved. Um, so please check out our devotional, check out our socials. I think that covers all the base the basics, right? Um check out some coffee, dude. Drink coffee, read the Bible, hang out with your peeps, and uh until then, this is Uncle Phil, this is Mr. David, and this is John.