Going to Church vs. Being the Church: What's the Real Difference? | Bible, Bros & Brew

Going to church means attending a building or event, while being the church means living out your identity as a believer — the body of Christ and the temple of God — every day, in every relationship. Scripture (1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 1, 1 Peter 2:9) teaches that believers are not just attendees but living stones built into God's spiritual house. Gathering with other believers still matters deeply (Hebrews 10:24-25), but it flows from who you already are, not the other way around. 

David McIntyre and Phillip Rich, with host/producer Jon Dzyuba, continue their series on biblical identity by exploring what changes when believers understand they are the church, not just attendees of one. Scripture covered includes 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 1 and 4, Colossians 1, 1 Corinthians 3 and 6, Hebrews 10, Matthew 18, Acts 2, and 1 Peter 2 and 5. Plus, the usual "What's in the Cup?" segment to kick things off. 

MINI FAQ 

Q: What's the difference between going to church and being the church? 

A: Going to church is about attending a building; being the church is about living as the body of Christ and temple of the Holy Spirit in everyday life. 

Q: Why does Hebrews 10:24-25 matter for this discussion? 

A: It explicitly commands believers not to stop gathering together, showing that gathering and identity work together rather than against each other. 

Q: What happens when churches are run like entertainment instead of biblical fellowship? 

A: David and Phillip explain that performance-driven gatherings can produce consumers and "celebrity pastor" culture instead of genuine, Christ-centered community. 

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. New episodes drop every Monday at 6 AM. BibleBrosBrew.com — Where the Word Meets the Daily Grind. 

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Transcript

Going To Church Vs Being Church

David McIntyre 0:00

Now that we've learned that we are the church, and not only the church, but the temple of living God, and we're dependent upon one another, now we've got to talk about what is the difference between going to church and being the church. Up next on Bible Bros and Brew. I am one of your hosts, David. The other hostess with the most us is over here to my other side. Ladies and gentlemen, Philip Rich. And then our producer over here, uh, the man with the plan and a ten dollar tan, the one and only, John D. John, how are you doing?

Jon Dzyuba 1:09

John D. I'm doing great, you guys. I'm doing great.

David McIntyre 1:14

Good, good. Uh, Philip, uh, we got a good one tonight. Uh, last week we spent some time talking about whether or not what the real church was. And we established that, and we'll walk back through that a little bit in just a few minutes. But now we've got to talk about the difference between going to church and being the church. And that is a distinction that you definitely have to make because once you realize that you are the church, then everything changes. And we're gonna help you to better understand why in just a few minutes.

What’s In The Cup

David McIntyre 1:50

But before we do that, let's find out what's in the cup. All right, this is our drinking section of the podcast. Uh, but it's not booze. Brews, it's coffee brews, coffee and tea brews, and a few other kinds of brews too. Uh, so let's start with John here. John, uh, what are you drinking tonight? What's in the cup?

Jon Dzyuba 2:27

Listen, I had to bring back a favorite. Please don't shoot me. I brought to the table another forbidden coffee, but it's my favorite of all of all the forbidden coffees. Uh, it's a brown sugar cinnamon latte from Starbucks.

David McIntyre 2:44

Oh my god!

Jon Dzyuba 2:46

There's a really nice thank you. Yes, a really nice creamer added to it. Uh, my wife made a my lovely wife made a really awesome mix with the coffee. I forget what the creamer is called. Um something, something creamy that elevates the flavor for sure. I'm a see, I'm a brown sugar cinnamon type of person. I know it's too early. I know we're like in the middle of June right now, and that's more of like a what September, November, whatever. Uh um, I might as well be out of season, you know what I mean. So it's my cup, and it's it's doing its job very well, very well.

David McIntyre 3:26

Nicely done. Thank you, John, for your brown sugar beverage, brown sugar latte from a random coffee company. And we just whose name will not be named here today.

Phillip Rich 3:41

Ever again.

David McIntyre 3:43

Yeah, we we call we we call them big, we call them big bucks. Yes, ever again, and we may call them from time to time burnt books, right?

Phillip Rich 3:54

That's more accurate.

David McIntyre 3:56

So what are you drinking tonight?

Phillip Rich 3:59

Well, guys, I hope everybody's ready. That's all I can say. I hope we take this moment in with the appropriate amount of reverence for what I'm about to share. So um, I just want to say that some scared. Um, okay. So Peregrine, every now and then, and you guys know this, every now and then they'll come out with a uh a coffee there where where they take the beans and they age them. Yes, A-G-E. They age the beans in a whiskey barrel. Um they have they have partnered with a distillery in, I guess it's in Colorado. I'm not sure where the distillery is, but so they use the the distillery's barrels, they age the coffee beans in the the whiskey barrels. Now these are empty whiskey barrels. This is not soaking coffee in whiskey itself. That's not what we're doing here. This is just taking a whiskey barrel that's empty, throwing the beans in there, letting them age for a little while, and then they roast the beans, and out comes this beauty known as Columba's cask. Praise the Lord. As you can see, it comes in a bottle that is reminiscent of whiskey bottles. Um, not that I would have experience with that uh in the past you know 30 years. But anyway, um we oh gosh, I'm getting myself in trouble, man.

David McIntyre 5:42

I was about to say, don't step up and tell on yourself, man.

Phillip Rich 5:46

Don't want to be one of them sipping saints, praise the Lord. But uh but it has notes of whiskey, cinnamon, and butterscotch. So it is fantabulous, man. Uh, as all of Peregrine's coffees are. But I just I I once I saw this hit the website, I said, dude, I gotta, I gotta make a move here. I gotta make a move. Um, even if it means putting it on installment plan, that's okay.

Jon Dzyuba 6:12

So uh are you sure it's not whiskey? Are you sure it's just not coffee flavored whiskey?

Phillip Rich 6:21

Oh my goodness, no, they wouldn't they wouldn't cause their brothers to stumble in such a way, so um I'm very thankful for that.

David McIntyre 6:31

But yeah, so uh we'll give you the flavor, but not the fermentation, yeah.

Phillip Rich 6:37

The flavor without the fermentation, praise God. So, but uh yeah, it's fantastic. But anyway, David, how about you, man? What you got in your cup?

David McIntyre 6:44

Uh tonight I am drinking an oldie but a goodie. I haven't had it around in a little while. This is Red Barn's Butter Pecan. Yes. Um, as you guys know, I'm a fan of Red Barn. Uh, they have some great coffees. My favorite is, well, no, their vanilla caramel is probably my favorite, but um, I bought this a while back and hadn't uh realized that. Um, here we go. Uh hadn't realized that I hadn't drank it in a while, so I'm trying to clear out some coffees before I buy more. So this was an oldie but a goodie to bring back out tonight.

Phillip Rich 7:23

Nice. Nice.

David McIntyre 7:25

All right, so that's what's in the cup. You can join us in the cup uh by sharing with us in the comment section what you're drinking while you're listening to the episode or while you're watching an episode. Uh, we'd love to see what you're drinking because what you're drinking may lead us to go out and buy that same thing so we could drink it too and see if it's any good. Uh and then, of course, you can always find out what we're drinking if you check out our Instagram or TikTok, or you can check out our website at BibleBrosbrew.com. All right, now let's get into the word. So

You Are The Church And Temple

David McIntyre 8:01

last week we spent a good chunk of time really laying out just a simple fact. And it well, it's a threefold fact, uh, kind of, and it's one that I've felt like and Philip felt like we really needed to address because we I I think, and I'm talking out of the side of my mouth right now, Philip. So you you fix it if you feel like I've gone astray. But I really feel like with you know, what we're seeing in our world today is we're seeing some unprecedented numbers, particularly of uh I don't of Gen Z and younger people who are making decisions for Christ. We see some people who are coming back to Christ, and there's a there's a little turn happening, right? Because at the same time, I'm seeing people deconstruct and all that, but it seems like I'm seeing more that are starting to take their walk with Christ and in a serious way, and so one of the things that we felt is important to do is we need to make sure that there's good groundwork for people to walk on and to understand because there's so much foolishness that's happening in our world and in our churches today that we we really need to help people to understand some things so that they'll know what they're looking at and looking for when they're out looking for a gathering place, looking for places to fellowship. So we start with this basic principle that the building is not the church. We've spent every day calling it the church. We say we're going to church, we say, you know, I'm gonna go down to a meeting at church, and all of that. And while you may practically understand what that means, we wanted to make it very clear that when we talk about the church, at first and foremost, you are the church. You as an individual believer, and we as a collective group of believers are the church. And not only are we the church, but then we go on and find out that we are the temple of God, and not just the temple of God, but we are the temple of God, and within the temple we hold the presence of the Holy Spirit, and then the third piece of that puzzle is we find out that we are interconnected, we are interdependent upon one another. So not only are we a body, but we are also connected tissue. Uh, I I for I forget whether it's uh whether it's Corinthians or or Romans, where it talks about, or maybe it's Ephesians 4, where it talks about each part, I think it's Ephesians 4, each joint, each part fitly joined together, supplying to one another. So we're connected. So even though we're individuals as one, we are also individuals collectively. And you'll see that in the scriptures because as we begin to look at the concept, for example, that we are, first of all, when we realize that we are the body of Christ, we look at 1 Corinthians 12, and we see it in verses 3 and 4. We see it again where he talks about how we are not only the body of Christ, but we are the church, right? So uh 1 Corinthians 12 really uses the term very heavily, body, until you get down to verse 27, where it talks about body and church. And then when you go over to Ephesians chapter one, you begin to see more that this body is the church, and then we get uh an even deeper lesson where we begin to see that Christ is the head, and we as individuals are the body, and then we slide on over and we see um in Colossians 18 and 24, verses 18, and then in verse 24, we see more about being the body and the church. And I think that's where I I could be I could just be misremembering now because I don't have all of the scriptures in front of me at the moment, where uh, well, that's where in 118 is where we see that Christ is the head of the church and that the body is the church, so we have things lined up in order, and then we slide over a little bit longer and we go into 1 Corinthians 3, and then again in 1 Corinthians 6 and 1 Corinthians 3, we're told that we are the body. Don't you know that you are God's temple and that the spirit of God lives in you? And what's so interesting about that uh is verse 3 in 1 Corinthians uh through well, 1 Corinthians chapter 3, verses 16 and 17, uh talk about how we are the temple of God collectively. And then if you look at 1 Corinthians chapter 6, verses 19 and 20, we see that we are also identified as the temple of God individually. So we see the collective, all of us together are the temple of God, and we carry the whole presence of the Holy Spirit, and we are individually the temple of God, and we carry the presence of the Holy Spirit, and so we kind of broke all of that down last week, and we got to this point where we said this week we were going to begin talking about what is the difference between being the church versus going to church. But before I do that, Philip, did I miss anything? Was there anything you wanted to add about last week?

Phillip Rich 14:28

No, I I love what you mentioned earlier, David, about um that scripture in Ephesians. If you don't mind, I wanted to go there real quick because there's something fascinating that's in that verse. Um, John, if you could go to Ephesians 4. I was looking at this, um, and it just sometimes, you know, you David, I know you you you know this feeling, and John, I'm sure you do too. Like you can read the scripture that you've read a hundred thousand times before, and then all of a sudden one word jumps out from that scripture that you just didn't pay attention to before, you know. Um, that's what basically just happened to me when you were talking about this, David. Um, Ephesians 4, verse 16. Uh, let's see here. And this is a heavy read, guys. Like, Paul's letters are not what you would call easy reading, you know. Um, that's one thing if you're if you're getting into studying the Bible, believe me when I say Paul's letters are like the they're they're not set on easy mode. I'll put it that way. You know, you you gotta really dig deep and read it and reread it and reread it and just think on it and break it down into chunks sometimes, like this verse here, verse 16. So many commas and clauses and stuff, and it's like, what is he talking about? So don't feel discouraged if you're reading these things and at first it doesn't make sense to you. I promise you, it doesn't make sense to 99% of people who read it for the first time, you know, not fully anyway. Um, even Peter, I was thinking about this in Second Peter. Peter said at the end of his his uh letter, he said, You remember this, David? He said, our beloved brother Paul, he said, there's some stuff in his letters that's difficult to understand. You know, it's like and look, that was Peter saying that. That was Peter saying that, you know, he was a an author of another letter, you know. So um, but anyway, verse 16. It says it was talking about Christ. Uh, actually, I guess I can read 15 first, but it says, rather speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, and here we go, from whom the whole body joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, it makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. John, if you could go to that King James version, because I there was a word that stood out when I read the King James. Good old KJV. Yes, sir. There it is in verse 16. From whom, talking about Jesus, from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted. That word compacted is what jumped out at me. So he's saying the body is joined together by God, but it is compacted or held together or unified together by what every joint supplies. So God put the body together, but it's held together. Um, and I and I looked up that word in the Greek compacted. It's a if I if I mispronounce it, forgive me, sumibadzo, sumibadzo. And it means to drive together, almost like you would drive a nail into a a piece of wood. You know what I mean? Um, to drive together, like to bond something by impact. And that's what I think this is, I think that's such a valuable thing to really kind of meditate on. Like the body is joined together by God, but held together by what every joint supplies, every single person in the body of Christ supplying the thing that they've been gifted to do, the thing they've been called to do, or whatever it is, whatever their lane is, their assignment is from God. When we're all functioning in our lane and in our gift, we are supplying to the entire body. And that that begins to hold that body, compact it together, and unify the body when we're all in our lane like we're supposed to be.

David McIntyre 19:01

That's good, Philip.

Phillip Rich 19:02

Praise God, man. It just jumped out at me. I was like, dude, I don't know. It's just one of those things, it's been there the whole time, but sometimes there's a certain light that shines on on a particular word or verse, and it's like, oh man, okay, I didn't see that before. So praise God, man. Anyway, that's that's what jumped out at me, David.

David McIntyre 19:21

Yeah, that that's good. You see, now you begin to see why it was important for the scripture to talk about you individually as well as collectively.

Jon Dzyuba 19:31

A hundred

Why Gathering Shapes Your Growth

Jon Dzyuba 19:32

percent.

David McIntyre 19:32

Both are critically important. Um, so tonight, as we talk about, as we continue this discussion, we need to talk about the difference between between going to church and being the church. And um I think it's um I think it's self-explanatory in one part, but I think that the part that we need to talk about is that when we have a change of perspective about who we are and what our role is, then we should begin to look around us and re-evaluate the things around us and their roles and how they fit together in the pieces of our lives and activity. So here's the clear part we are the church, but we also gather at as the church. You know, I suggested last week that rather than continuing to say, I'm going to church, um, to rather say we're going to gather or to say um we're we're going we're going to the place where we have fellowship or whatever. And it was not to be deep, but rather to get you to start thinking of yourself as the church more than you think about that building as the church. Because when you think about the building as the church, then you'll make certain decisions that you might not make if you realize that you are the church. Right. Um, and and you would realize that if I'm the church, then gathering matters. And it's important for me, you know. We talk about like we're just we talked over that series, I'm over it, just a little bit ago. And we talked about, you know, some of the challenges in our series about immaturity and pride and some of the other things that we gotta grow up, right? We talked about those things, but the reality is that when we refuse to gather, we refuse to connect, it's one way that we stunt our own growth. Yeah. Because then you you lack the type of connections and fellowship that help you to see, oh, maybe this isn't the best behavior. I shouldn't carry myself like that. Or that that fellowship and connection has the opportunity to create a relationship with other people that help you or you help them. And all of that leads to, you know, we one of the dynamics in our world today is we have an epidemic of loneliness. Right. Uh that is that is something that's statistically said and communicated, that we live in a world of hyper-connectedness, where we got a phone. Literally, you typically don't see the palm of somebody's hand often because there's usually a phone in it. And so, in one sense, we're hyper connected, where somebody can reach us at any minute, beep us, and we'll turn and look at whatever that beep is, whenever the time frame is, and it doesn't even phase us anymore. We don't we don't even phase by the fact that that is like still new. I mean, it it's it's like 20 years ago you weren't really doing that.

Phillip Rich 23:07

It's true, man. I was looking at a video, don't I don't mean to throw you um uh no you're good jump in, but um I was looking at a video by this guy who's probably about our age, David, and he was talking about how things, you know, some things that used to be normal are now completely like unheard of. And one of the things he said I thought was interesting, I'm like, yeah, he said, actually, back you know, when we were growing up in the 80s, it was normal to be unreachable. Yeah, it was normal to for like you didn't have to explain yourself if somebody called you and got your answer machine or whatever and and didn't hear from you for till next day, there was no explaining yourself and where you were for that that hour or whatever it was. It was just it was normal to not be reachable, you know. It was it was normal for people to not know what you were doing every second of the day. And now, like you said, David, it's just so different. You know, it's it's now it's like if if if I don't respond to your text in an in an hour, what's wrong? You know, something's going on, you know, that kind of thing.

David McIntyre 24:13

And people get put out about it, yeah. Yeah, and it's so wild because like my kids, John included, um, you know, they all have this find my I think find my iPhone phone or follow me app or something. They always know where each other is. I'll say, has anybody seen Joshua and Sabrina be like beep beep beep? Oh, Joshua's over at so-and-so. And it's like, you know, uh, in one sense, that's wild technology. Yeah, it is, and and what in one sense it's even helpful, but then on the other sense, somebody always has a tag on you, yeah. Somebody can always reach you, always connect, and that's part of okay. I'm going off here for just a second. That's part of the problem in this world because we're so hyper-connected, we gotta actually when we fast, people fast from their phones and devices, yeah. And that definitely isn't necessarily what the fast started off of being, you know, but we're we're and these things they mess with us, yeah. They mess with us in ways that not we're not willing to tell the truth about right now, yeah. And so, but in a hyper connected world, people are lonely. The more connected we seem to be, the more disconnected people feel, and that is because they don't get that sense of touch, feel, and connection, face-to-face conversation, and that whole thing. The gathering of the church is meant to be the answer for that. The gathering of the church is designed for you to come together with other believers and encourage one another, grow together, live this life together, know what the other needs, and when possible, meet those needs. We're gonna look at Acts in just a little bit, and how everybody had all things common. And that was the way the church started. But where we are at today feels like a very, very different place. So um, when you say I'm going to church, it might be better to say I'm going to gather with the church or I'm going to worship with the church, I'm going to the place where our church meets. It isn't about being overly, again, picky with words, but it's about recovering your biblical understanding of who you are. And so I want to actually take a look at a scripture right now. Let's run over to Hebrews chapter 10 really quickly. I'm gonna pull this up. And you know, and I know Philip could could probably attest to this, and feel free to jump in too, Philip. For years, I've heard these scriptures used as a means to tell me this is proof evident that you're supposed to go to church. Which means that the people who were saying it may not have really even understood that they were the church.

Phillip Rich 27:48

Right.

David McIntyre 27:49

But they valued the going to the building, I think, more than they valued the gathering of the people. But what does 10 and 24 and 5 say? It says, let us be concerned. And I am reading from the God's word translation. Let me switch over to God's word translation. And I choose I chose that just because it has a real simple way of saying it, and I want simplicity and understanding for you guys tonight. It says we must also consider how to encourage each other to show love and to do good things. We should not stop gathering together with other believers as some of you are doing. Instead, we must continue to encourage each other even the more as we see the day of the Lord coming. One thing I'm sure of is the day of the Lord is coming. Yes, and if for no other reason, it's simply that by being here today, you're one day closer to that than you were yesterday.

Phillip Rich 28:59

That's right. That's right.

David McIntyre 29:01

And so that know that day is coming, and the one thing that believers should be doing, the church should be doing, is gathering together. Now, gathering together can mean gathering at the building with other believers and worshiping and listening to teaching, etc. But that is not exclusive. It should be inclusive of when you go to your fellow brother or sister's house in the Lord and you guys gather and break bread together. You talk about the word, you talk about how your life is going. That is fellowship, that is something God ordains, and that is an example of gathering yourself together.

Real Fellowship Outside The Building

David McIntyre 29:50

Philip, you want to you want to share on this point a little bit?

Phillip Rich 29:54

Yeah, I think it one of the the best examples I can think of is uh a group that my family and I used to attend. Um, they were in Peachtree City where near where we live now, and it was a group with the of believers that gathered together every Saturday night at a a guy's house. He he lived in Peachtree City. He had a pretty big house, so it could fit a lot of people in there. And this group was probably about third, it could be anywhere from 20 to 30 people most of the time. People would bring dishes, like it'd almost be like a covered dish kind of a thing. They'd bring food, we'd get together. Uh, there would be like a time we'd maybe play a worship song or something like that, just to kind of start things off. And then um, and then when the time came to do like the actual interaction or fellowship, uh one of the most common things, one of the most common questions they would ask is, Hey, what's God teaching you this week? It was a very simple question. What's God teaching you this week? And then folks would go around the room and just share the things that maybe God had dropped in their heart or a scripture that came to their mind or whatever it was. And of course, as people shared, like one person would pipe up over here and say something to kind of add to it. Another person over here would say, Yeah, you know, I was looking at that too. Or it would bring up something that all of us could pray about, you know, like, okay, such and so's dealing with this situation and so forth and so on. And you want to talk about one of the most like edifying things I've ever been a part of. It was just so cool. Like we never went to a meeting at that place and left like regretting that we went. You know, and instead, we were glad we went, we felt built up, we felt like we had actually been with believers and and done actual biblical fellowship because we had food, we had music, we had fun, we had fellowship, and it was simple, it was nothing, you know, over overly deep or super spiritual or hard or nothing like that. It was just people getting together, glorifying God, focusing on the word, fellowshipping, sharing what we've learned, and it was a beautiful thing, dude. And and I believe it was the fulfillment or the like a good example of what Hebrews 10 talked about when he said, Don't forsake the assembling of yourselves together, but exhort one another, encourage one another. I feel like that's what was happening in that group. And and so, yeah, that to me that the picture that I get when I when I think about what it means to come together as a body or gather together, that's probably the the best picture I have of of how that might look.

David McIntyre 32:39

That's good, Philip. But you can see regardless, the objective from is that you don't forsake the gathering, the gathering is the important part because it not only is it, and let me say why the gathering is the important part because of what happens when you get together, yeah. Because then we'll see, and um, we can we can even look at it now. If you look at Matthew chapter 18 and you read down to verse 20, one of the things it says, uh, look starting at verse 19, it says, Again, I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them. So we see the power of the gathering because one of the things that can happen within the power of the gathering is that you and I get together in agreement on what God said, and we pray heaven down, we pray absolute miracles into our lives, we pray progress in, we we pray for family members, and we we see sons and daughters return, like it talks about in Isaiah 60. And so we we we see so much good when we gather together, but the call is for us to gather, and so many of us forsake that gathering, and we forsake it for a lot of reasons. People forsake gathering together because they were heard at another gathering, people forsake gathering together because they just don't feel like they have time. We don't gather because we've got, you know, travel ball, and everybody's playing travel ball, and they can't they can't get to a gathering, and there are all these reasons we and some of it is just don't want to, and we have all these excuses and reasons not to gather, but in Hebrews 10, 24, and 5, it very explicitly tells us that we are not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together. Does that mean I can't go on vacation? Of course you can go on vacation, but your vacation shouldn't start in June of 2026, and the next time we see you gathering with anybody is at Christmas time where you do your fruit, nut and flake version of Christianity. Yeah. Yikes. So you gotta, you gotta, we gotta gather. That's an important thing. And we'll find as believers that'll be you you'll be set apart from the world because when other people are talking about being lonely, you'll be talking about how you gather together with other believers and are fulfilled and connected and happy, which is something the world doesn't know or understand, but it will become a calling card in your life for you to help introduce people to Christ. So you want to be a part of that gathering. That's the first part, right? So now let's let's continue on. Um, and just for I'll say this too: that gathering is not the entirety of the Christian life, but it's a necessary part of it. It doesn't take over everything, and that you just live from gathering to gathering to gathering. Because you know what? That's what people do now. They go to church on Sunday, they check the box off that they went to church. I did that. Go through a whole week of living any old kind of way, doing any old kind of what thing, trying to survive, make it happen for yourself, and then they get back to Sunday and check the box again. Sunday might be the day that we gather, but that is not the entirety of the Christian life. Now, let's uh I won't look at another, I won't look at another one here, Phil. Or did you want to jump in, John?

Jon Dzyuba 37:00

I I just wanted to kind of give an example, and it's been I've been thinking about it. I think that it applies this, like the concept of gathering applies to like anything, especially you know, not like just church, like especially if you're in the sports realm or if you're like taking certain classes and learning, like in the season of the World Cup, right? You know, you have a team that plays, and you as an individual can touch the ball a thousand times in one day and train as much as you can, but you don't grow as a player until you play with your team, you know what I mean? Um, that's just one example. So I like you know, but you don't really you can't just not do things individually or not just do it as a group, if that makes sense. Like you know, going to the gym.

David McIntyre 37:48

You know what that sparks, John. It it takes us back to, I think, Philip, correct me, Proverbs, um, where it talks about iron sharpening iron.

Jon Dzyuba 37:58

Yes, exactly, exactly.

David McIntyre 38:01

If you're the only piece of iron around, there's nothing for you to sharpen yourself with.

Phillip Rich 38:06

That's right. A hundred percent. We need each other, you know. God made the system that way, and no man's supposed to be an island to themself, right?

David McIntyre 38:15

It's not supposed to be like that, which is which is evidenced in the concept that we're a body and we're interdependent, right?

Jon Dzyuba 38:24

It's a it's a natural thing, like that's what I'm saying. Like in every group, not just the church, but in work, in schooling, in education, in in sport, like in everything, like gathering is you know, like you're part of the chess team, or if you're going to classes, you learn better when you're working together, right? In a classroom, or you're learning better when you're playing a sport together. Like, that's just that's just I feel like a fundamental law of human nature. Like, you grow when you are together, and why shouldn't that be applied to the church? That's all I'm saying. That's John's two cents right there.

David McIntyre 38:58

Yeah, and and I would turn it around, it's is it applies to the church, so why shouldn't it apply to everything else? The difference is other people are using it, but we as the church sometimes we get off on all of our own stuff and we take our individualism to an extreme and forsake our gathering for the benefit of our individualism, and we don't realize that our individualism actually harms us, it doesn't help us.

Jon Dzyuba 39:31

Yeah.

David McIntyre 39:32

So now let's look a little

Acts 2 Model For Church Life

David McIntyre 39:35

deeper into this. Let's look at Acts chapter two verses let's start at um let's look at uh let's look at look I can't even speak English right now. Let's look at Acts chapter two verse 42. Now there have been two significant things that have just happened here in the books book of Acts. The book of Acts chapter two starts off with Pentecost, and the tongues of flaming fire come down, people are speaking in tongues, the people outside hear it, and the next significant thing happens. Peter preaches his first public sermon, and um he's talking, and literally thousands of people are hearing him and saying, We're hearing these people, and we're hearing them all in our own tongues, which would make perfectly good sense because they're speaking in tongues. And by the way, do you know that speaking in tongues is on the rise right now? People are starting to get that gift and lock it, but we'll talk about that later. Um, but Peter preaches to these people, they all say all these people must be drunk, and Peter's like, nay nay, we are sober, but here's what we know, and he lays it all out before them, and by the time it ends, and he drops that last bomb on them. Verse 41 says, So those who received his word were baptized, and they were added that day about three thousand. Now, at the beginning of the church, these apostles were picking them up by the thousands. They were preaching hot fire, it was coming straight from the press, and it was good stuff. And verse 42 says, And they devoted themselves, talking about the people, they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayers, and awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common, and they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all as had need, and day by day attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. And if you look at verse 4, I mean verse 42, it kind of gives us an outline of what should be happening when you gather. First of all, teaching. We see the apostles' teaching. Well, a good chunk of what we're reading in the Bible, particularly in the New Testament, is the apostles' teaching, so that should be exhorted in your gathering. Fellowship should be exhorted. The breaking of bread and prayers. So we see these four things are happening when they gather. And even when they gather, it says uh verse 40 of verse 46, it says, and day by day they were attending the temple together. So they were going to the temple and getting fed the word of God and hearing from the apostles in their cases directly. What an awesome opportunity that must have been. And just think about it. How many sermons were preached? How much word did they hear that we never see in the Bible? There's just so much, much, much more that was unwritten that people had to have heard. And then we say, not only were they in the temple together, but They were breaking bread in their homes. And they received food. There was gladness. The generosity was present. And then here's the what I think is probably the fifth thing that should go along with those four things is they were praising God and having favor with all people. You know, Paul says it in the couple of his letters. He talks about that we ought to be coming to God and gathering together with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs and other praising God and worship should be happening together. And we see the evidence of what happens when that happens. 43 says an an awe came over. Came upon every soul. In other words, there was a holy weight that came, it's like it came across the room. It's like if you've ever felt the presence of God, it can be heavy. And they were feel they were feeling that because God was present with them while they were doing these things that were important to him. But look at this. Many wonders and signs were being done as well. And it kind of makes me wonder is this why we don't see more signs and wonders being done? Why is it that some missionaries can go overseas to Asia and other places and do many mighty works, but then not here? I mean, it's just a it's just a thought. You go ahead, Philip. You you you'd go ahead. I talked too long anyway.

Phillip Rich 45:56

No, you're good. I I think uh looking at this that passage there, it's actually very similar to what we were talking about earlier with the group that I was attending. Um, I forgot how many years ago it's been, but um, that was pretty much how they did what they did. It was it was breaking bread, prayer, fellowship, there'd be some teaching, because sometimes if somebody would bring up a scripture, uh you know, the the facilitator would take a moment and say, hey, you know, let's let's go to that verse and look at it and break it down. And and uh it was just one of those things where it it was it was spirit-led, but of course, you know, things done in order without it it going, you know, folks getting wacky and stuff like that. You know, everybody everybody had respect for the gathering, you know. Um, but it's but I I I really I mean if you look at that passage in in the book of Acts, it's actually really simple. And I think that's what I

When Church Becomes A Performance

Phillip Rich 46:50

I like about it the most. It's just very, very simple. The early church operated like this versus more of what we see today, where it's more about, and I and I don't mean to be not trying to knock anything, but it's just kind of call it like I see it. Uh, it's more about a performance, or at least it kind of comes across like that sometimes, where you know you you've got a pulpit, all the seats are facing the stage, and the pastor or whoever is expected to get up there and deliver a message, and then they've got you know a fog machine and praise and worship with strobe lights and not you know, it it it it comes across more as entertainment instead of genuine biblical fellowship.

David McIntyre 47:35

Dude, you snatched the note right off my paper. You're absolutely right. The gathering is not supposed to be entertainment first, no, that's right, it's not supposed to be performance first. Check this out. It's not supposed to be personality driven first.

Phillip Rich 47:55

No, it's not, no, it's not.

David McIntyre 47:57

But gathering should help people to grow in and to and towards Christ.

Phillip Rich 48:04

That's right, yeah. But we see all too often, sadly, we see celebrity pastors, you know, people who and and I hate to say it, but the culture of somebody's churches enables that, you know, their their pastor becomes their superstar, and it's like, oh man, wait till you hear my pastor preach, you know, and and it gets into this, you know, and I and I hesitate to say this, but it's almost like a cult of personality, and you don't want that, but we see that happening a lot in especially in churches in America. Uh it's very, very common here, and I think it's because we are a very entertainment-driven culture, you know, overall.

David McIntyre 48:46

And so sadly, and Philip, it's happened, it's starting to happen a little bit in Africa too.

Jon Dzyuba 48:53

Yeah, I've seen some of that as well, and it's sad. Uh I want to I want to circle back to another point from earlier. That's that's because you're talking about why we're not seeing miracles and wonders happen, but we're also talking about you know, you know, America being the number one church that has a corporate church, or number one country that has a corporate church, where it's not about bringing people together for the sake of the gathering, it's bringing people together for to sell their entertainment. Um, and I and if you were to ask me, I know nobody did, but if you were to ask me, that's that is that is that that is a complete correlation as to why we're not seeing what we're seeing outside of here. Because here it's so difficult to like I I sometimes like life can be like a fog where you have to go to work and get these things and you know make sure you get the food and groceries, take care of the kids, and do all these things, and especially here with your phones and all these screens, it's so easy to just like be distracted. Um, to where going to church, again, another correlation there, going to church is just another part of that part of your life where you just have to do this thing just to do it because you have to do it, you know what I mean? And so that kind of just has becomes the cycle. And again, why why we're not seeing, you know, like mountains being moved here, and it's because it's just it's what you're saying right here, it's just entertainment, it's just a thing that you do because you're so you're supposed to do it on Sunday.

Phillip Rich 50:26

Well, yeah, it's it's it's like checking a box off on your social calendar a lot of times, you know. And I I think what Jesus said makes sense in this in this kind of scenario. He said, Take take heed what you hear because the measure that you meet out is the measure that's coming back to you. Right. Um and if you're not esteeming God's word is anything more than just, you know, something that I do on Sunday, of course, it's what I've always done, what we've always done, uh, and you're not really taking it um seriously. You know, you're you're you're lightly esteeming it, or you're not not esteeming it at all, then that's the measure that's going to come back. You know, with what measure you meet, it shall be measured back to you. The more seriously you take the word, the more you reverence the word, the more you actually go, wow, this is the word of God. You know, this isn't just you know religious scriptures or whatever, uh inspirational writings or whatever. This is the and and Paul said that too, man. I I think it's in one of the Thessalonians. He said the thing that stood out to us was that when you received what we said, you receive it not as the word of men, but as the word of God who works effectually in you that believe. You know, I I forgot which one of the Thessalonians it is, but it's in there somewhere. And the more we treat that word with seriousness and reverence, the more it can be measured back to us in terms of possibly signs and wonders and miracles and things like that. You know, so just some thoughts there.

David McIntyre 52:02

Yeah, it's it's um we're we're gonna talk about that rock star, you know, that the the we're gonna talk about the leadership in church that that lets some of this happen because you know it's it ought not to be in some cases.

Jon Dzyuba 52:23

Yeah.

David McIntyre 52:24

You know, I I would, you know, here's to the guy who starts the strip-down church that has a little guitar and a few people singing and a set of drums and keeps it simple, focuses what they do at the church on preaching the word. They after church go and break bread together. People connect, we praise God together, pray for one another in in the church time, in the fellowship time. You know, we take opportunities and then we go out, we say, go out and now do this again in your homes. Go out and do this again in your communities, make this your standard. You know, we would we would have such a I I think there would be the beginning of something new, but I will tell you that it is happening in this country. And as usual, God said that he would use a remnant to accomplish what he wanted to accomplish. So um I I just want to make sure that as for me and mine, we need to be a part of that remnant. I don't want to miss that remnant for anything. Um just a couple of other things. Um just a couple things about why this distinction between going to church and being the church

How A Right View Changes Everything

David McIntyre 53:55

matters. You know, I've got four thoughts that I wrote down here. Number one, um well, five, that this distinction matters because when we understand, when we misunderstand the church, we misuse the church. In other words, we'll find, you know, we won't when we go to the church building, the building we call the church, then we'll go there to see friends, not hear word. We'll go, we'll go there with nothing to do with you know the word of fellowship or connection. We're going there to drop some food off to Tanya and see how so-and-so is doing and get the latest word on such and such, and then go back and spread that around as gossip. Or we just simply show up to say, as we already talked about, we're there. If we think the church is only a building, then we reduce Christianity to only attendance.

Phillip Rich 55:03

Right, right.

David McIntyre 55:06

If we look at church and say that it's only an event, then that makes us consumers, right? And that just means every week we're showing up to an event, hopefully get our money's worth to tithe if you tithe, and then we go on. If we think the church is only an institution, then we tolerate politics, branding, ego, and all kinds of control. And then finally, if we understand that the church is Christ's body and God's temple, then everything changes, and all of that stuff is blown out of the water, and we see all kinds of things. And here's why. Number one, um, it changes our identity. We don't merely attend church, we are the church, and you've heard us talk about that over and over again. And I just want to look at one more verse um before we're done. Let's look at first Peter two and nine. Hold on, I'm gonna get there in just a second. Because First Peter two and nine, uh, it reminds us of something about ourselves as well, and it says, but you after it in verse one, um let's read verse one real quick. So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy, envy and slander, and like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation. You move from immature to growing in maturity. If indeed you have tasted the Lord is good. As you come to him, verse 4 a living stone rejected by men in the sight of God, chosen and precious. You yourselves, like living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house. So Paul tells us that we are the body of Christ. Peter tells us we are like a spiritual house, that we are living stones, that Jesus was a living stone, and he was rejected, and that we are living stones, and we're built up into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in scripture, Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him, talking about Jesus, will not be put to shame. Verse 7. So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, the very stone that you need, the stone that the builders rejected, has become the cornerstone, and thus a stone, and verse eight, a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense. And then it says they stumble because they disobey the word as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. See, your identity changes because you realize that you're chosen, you're a royal priesthood, you're a holy nation, you're a people of his possession. You're not what everybody else is. You're not, you're, you're not, you know, all children of God. Nope, that's only for the believers in Christ. So when you realize that you're the church, it changes your whole identity. The second thing that it does is it changes how we treat one another. When you recognize that we all need one another, we're all interconnected, it changes how we treat one another.

Phillip Rich 59:44

That's good.

David McIntyre 59:45

The third thing I'll give, and then I'll I'm gonna give you fourth, is it changes what we expect from leadership. Should and there I I want to encourage you guys to go back and look at first Peter 5, 2 and 4, where it calls people to shepherd the flock, but to do it because you choose to from a good position, not out of obligation. And then it goes on to tell you in just a little bit that do that and do it well until God, the good Jesus, the high good shepherd, comes. So you're just holding ground and not just holding ground, but you're moving things forward. But you are not the one, it's not all about you, it never was all about you. That's right, it's still about the sheep. You've positioned yourself to be a servant to the sheep, not the rock star to the sheep. We'll talk about that a little bit later on, and then the last thing, um reason four, is it helps us when we realize who we are, it helps us to discern healthy and unhealthy gathering places. And these are all the things that we're going we're going to talk about in um in the days and weeks to come. What are you guys' thoughts on those things?

Phillip Rich 1:01:29

That's that's I like oh, go ahead, John. I think I jumped in on oh no, you're good.

Jon Dzyuba 1:01:34

I was just saying I I think that one of the most vital things is that I have I wish I had learned sooner is being able to discern between gathering places, places that I should be at, and places I should not be at, even when the places that I should not be at feel and look comforting when really they're adding nothing to my life. Um but no, that's yeah, I I am excited to have these conversations because then I also want to address the people that you know that are hurt by church. I know we talked a lot about like church hurt and people running from church. Um this conversation is exciting to me because it changes the way you it should change the way you view it. Um and it shouldn't oh man, I I'm just getting myself all riled up over all over again. But like truthfully, it it it it should repurpose and rewire your brain and your perspective on church, because man, when you see it, it's about the people when you get down to the root, like I've had so many conversations about church hurting people, you know, why'd you leave this? Why'd you go there? Why'd you stop going? Well, you you know, because you know it always starts with like the certain the church, the general church, and then it just boils down to like well this person said this to me, this person led me astray, or I don't agree with this person, and it's just you realize it's just one part of the body disagreeing with another part of the body, and the next thing you know, we get the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, you know, you get the Protestants and the Catholics, and the you know, so on and so forth. So, and it's it's oh man, it like this is not a new conversation. Like, I wish I could like this conversation is the reason why Christianity has so many denominations because people just cannot agree on certain things and they get butthurt or church hurt and they make their own church elsewhere.

David McIntyre 1:03:34

I'll adapt what you just said. It's not that they cannot agree, it's that they refuse to agree. Right, right because I'm gonna tell you as some of them, um, some of them cannot agree because of their understanding or lack thereof of the word. Right, right. And then the other thing I gotta tell you when we talk about this church hurt thing, I need everybody to brace themselves because there's some hard things that have to be said about church hurt too. You know, we we ought we empathize with people who are hurt and we sympathize with them, but there's also some pieces of that that we have to talk about to be acknowledged. I can't wait to get there. Go ahead, Philip.

Phillip Rich 1:04:19

No, um, you guys, I mean, all all has been said. I feel like uh Ecclesiastes, you know, at the end of the thing, when he's like, everything's been said, it's all good, you know. Here's a conclusion of the whole matter. Fear God and keep his commandments. Um yeah, but but that's actually true. And um, but I I think that the more we dig into this series, we're I think I my prayer is that it will give people a better picture of not only what the body of Christ is supposed to be, but also what their place in that body is supposed to look like, to where um and hopefully it'll it'll offer a different perspective on church because I what we can run into sometimes, and I know we're we're running out of time, but I'll try to say it quickly. What we run into sometimes though is people who uh let's say they join a church or they attend a church regularly, like like a building church, and they something happens, like you guys said, they they uh maybe they have a bad experience with a leader in one of the ministries or something else like that, and it it it causes them to like their their foundation gets shaken, uh, even to the point sometimes of just walking away from the entire thing. And sadly, that can for many people that can bring a sense of guilt, it can bring condemnation, it can bring a sense of like uh being uh ostracized or exiled or whatever you want to call it, and they feel like they've somehow disappointed God because of what happened in the building.

David McIntyre 1:05:49

Right.

Phillip Rich 1:05:50

And and that's dangerous. It's dangerous to think that because the church thing may have gone sideways, that somehow your relationship with God is now altered. Permanently and it just can't be fixed. You know, that's a dangerous place to be. So I'm looking forward, like you said, David, to kind of getting into the more of that uh that side of it too.

David McIntyre 1:06:11

Yeah, that's that's good, Philip. And you know, well, I just need to shut up. Yeah that that that's that's there's enough that's been said. We haven't more we have more weeks to say more things. Amen. Um so once we understand that we are the church, now we can get to the point where we can talk more honestly about what is happening in the places where the church gathers. And that that's really where we needed to get, we wanted to get to. Because I tell you what, and and maybe I'm wrong, Philip. Um Philip and I love our church that we started in. But knowing what we know now and understanding what we've just talked about over these last two weeks, I can't say for sure that I would have picked the same place to start.

Phillip Rich 1:07:08

Right. Yeah.

David McIntyre 1:07:11

And um that would be that would be an interesting re readjustment of our story, wouldn't it?

Phillip Rich 1:07:19

Big time. There's so and we could, you know, I know we can go off on a tangent with that. There was so much good that came out of it, but then also so much that was like, uh, you know.

David McIntyre 1:07:31

And look, Philip and I were fortunate ones because despite some of the things that we experienced, we didn't walk away from God.

Phillip Rich 1:07:42

That's right.

David McIntyre 1:07:43

Other people did.

Phillip Rich 1:07:46

Yeah.

David McIntyre 1:07:47

Other people slapped backslid and step fully back into the world and started doing their own thing again. So um, I praise God for that. That's that's his work in our lives, not ours. That's

Next Steps And How To Reach Us

David McIntyre 1:08:03

his work. So, over the next several weeks, we're gonna look at questions like what should be happening when the church gets together? What are the signs of a healthy gathering place? How can you recognize an unhealthy and an unsafe gathering place? How do we deal with church hurt without giving up on the church? Because now we even gotta reclassify what we call church hurt.

Jon Dzyuba 1:08:33

Yeah.

David McIntyre 1:08:35

Then how do we choose a church wisely? What role should teaching, worship, fellowship, accountability, and service play? And then how do we know when it's time to stay, when it's time to serve, when it's time to confront, and when it's time to leave? Those are all important pieces of the puzzle that we're gonna have to work ourselves through over the next couple of weeks. So that's it for us tonight, you guys. I'm actually tired.

Phillip Rich 1:09:11

Likewise.

David McIntyre 1:09:13

That's probably talking too much. That's why I talk too much when I'm sleepy. We really hope this helps you guys. I walk away from this knowing who I am, and what I am is the body of Christ. I'm a living stone in God's building.

Phillip Rich 1:09:34

Amen.

David McIntyre 1:09:35

And I'm a temple of the Holy Spirit, and God lives and dwells in me, and I in him, and good things come from understanding them. And now I can look more soberly at the world and around at the things around me. And I hope that that sobriety hits you too. If we could be any help of clarifying anything, if you still have questions about this, we want to encourage you to please send us a note at gotbrew at Bible Brosbrew.com. And we'd love to talk to you about it. You can also leave us a note in the comments section wherever you're listening to this at or wherever you may be watching it at. Please make sure you like and subscribe to the channel on the various platforms that you're watching and listening on. We would greatly appreciate it. And join us out on social media, Instagram, TikTok, um, somewhere out there in Facebook world, and visit our website, Bible Brosbrew.com. Until next time, I'm David, that's Philip, he's John, and we are going out to look for gathering a place that doesn't do real stuff.

Phillip Rich 1:10:48

Something like that.