Why Are People Really Leaving the Church? (The Answer Will Surprise You)

According to the Public Religion Research Institute and Pew Research, the number one reason people leave the church — cited by 51–67% of respondents — is that they simply stopped believing. Hosts David McIntyre and Phillip Rich of Bible, Bros & Brew argue this is not a programming problem. It's a roots problem — what happens when faith isn't built on consistent, personal engagement with Scripture. 

In this episode, David McIntyre and Phillip Rich react to two videos presenting survey data on why people are walking away from the church. They explore what the Bible says about shallow versus rooted faith, drawing from the Parable of the Sower in Matthew chapter 13, Romans chapter 10 verse 17, and Jesus' challenge to "do the work of believing" in John chapter 6 verses 26 through 29. They also address the role of parents in faith formation, the danger of Sunday-only Christianity, and how to respond when hypocrisy in the church shakes your faith. 

Mini FAQ 

Q: What is the number one reason people leave the church? 

A: Both PRRI and Pew Research independently found it's that people stopped believing — not dissatisfaction with programs or leadership. 

Q: How do you build faith that actually lasts? 

A: Romans chapter 10 verse 17 says faith comes by hearing the Word of God. David and Phillip argue that daily, personal engagement with Scripture — not church attendance alone — is what produces lasting belief. 

Q: What should parents do to keep their kids in the faith? 

A: David and Phillip share from their own experience that intentional, daily family devotion time — and refusing to outsource spiritual formation to the church alone — is what anchors children in genuine faith. 

Call to Action 

📖 I'm Over It 14-Day Devotional — available now at BibleBrosBrew.com and on Amazon
🌐 BibleBrosBrew.com ·  📧 gotbrew@biblebrosbrew.com

Where the Word Meets the Daily Grind. 
Hosted by David McIntyre and Phillip Rich. 

gotbrew@biblebros.net

Transcript

Why People Are Leaving Church

David McIntyre 0:00

Hey everybody, on this episode of Bible Bros and Brew, we're going to talk about what some recent surveys share is the reason people are leaving the church and some interesting answers about what to do about it. We're going to react to those videos up next on Bible Bros and Bre. Welcome to Bible. I am David, and I'm so glad that you are with us tonight. Uh, we're going to be talking about something that uh I feel a little passionate about, and I think the other guys do too. But before we jump into that, of course, I've got with me uh the co-host with the Mo hostess. That would be Philip Rich. And then over there, our producer on the wheels of steel, as we say, but they're really not steel, they're more like a compound alloy because it's a laptop. But he's on those he's on those ones and twos trying to make it happen. They've got John over there on the other side. Tonight we're going to take a look at a couple of videos that I found on TikTok that talks about a recent, I think it's PRW and another survey that talk about the number one reason why people are leaving the church. And that reason is probably something that you are not thinking about at all. But what is interesting is not only the reason why these surveys say that people are leaving the church, what's equally interesting is especially with the first lady that we're going to watch, is her answer to the problem. And we're going to talk about those for those things, and then we're going to talk about another person's answer to the problem, which is based on some further data from that survey. And then we're going to bring it down to, you know, where do we sit in all of this? And I think you're going to enjoy the conversation. And I'm sure you're going to have something to share about it too. That's what the comments section is for. So make sure you take a moment and comment, share your thoughts. Uh, while we're recording live, you can comment and we'll see it. It'll pop up on our screens and we can share it and we can talk about it with uh the rest of the folks here. All right, before we do that though, we've got something very important to do, ladies

What’s In The Cup

David McIntyre 2:44

and gentlemen. We've got to find out what's in the cup. Right, we're gonna find out what's in the cup. Let's kick it off with Philip. Let's see what peregrine coffee he has tonight.

Phillip Rich 3:05

How did you know? Okay, well, Philip, did you did you see?

David McIntyre 3:11

Did you happen to catch our Instagram? Um oh not yet. I need to look at it. Yeah, Peregrine left you a little note in there. Um Lori started something, and Peregrine, of course, said Philip, you know, he he got the message when we said faithful from day one.

Phillip Rich 3:34

That's awesome. That's awesome. I'm I am an unashamed Peregrine fan. As you can see, the hat I've got here. I just recently ordered this one. Um I don't know. Do I have issues? Maybe I just might. Um, I'm a big fan of not only the coffee, but the vibe of their whole operation and their merch. Their merch is like top-notch. So um, but that's why I've got the hat. And I have never shown you guys this. Maybe I did. I hope I'm not repeating myself without knowing it. But I got a leather coaster. Did I ever talk about this before? It's a leather coaster with an embossed peregrine. It's hard to see it, but it's got the share that with us.

Jon Dzyuba 4:16

I think you shared it last week.

Phillip Rich 4:18

Yeah, so it's handcrafted, praise the Lord. Um, I figured I'd share that. It's a good thing to set your coffee cup on so you can feel totally official as you drink your peregrine coffee. But I do have also this uh Columbia finca el roble, as I love to roll the R for that. But this coffee, I'm telling you, in my it's in my top five of all time for peregrine's coffees, but um, it's got notes of orange soda, violet, and blackberry, and it is pretty doggone good. It's it's it's just such a rich, like complex flavor without being pretentious. I just want to put that out there. It it has um JP Sears once said it has a crisp finish and a never-ending beginning, and uh, that's what I feel about it. But uh anyway, so John, what about you, man? What you got in your cup?

Jon Dzyuba 5:20

Listen, I'm feeling gentlemen, summer is upon us. It's not here yet, but I had to go with something cold, I had to go with something uh I was gonna say bold, but it's not bold, it's soft flavor. It's a chocolate raspberry coffee, and it felt right to have it under an ice you know, brew instead of uh just brewing it hot. And it's it's nice, it's it's it's what I need for tonight's conversation. Nothing crazy, just chocolate raspberry. Very um, I guess to me, raspberry tastes very floral. Yeah. And you know, say what you will about having fruits in your coffee. It's a hit or miss for me, but this one is not a miss. So I'll put it at that. And plus, I gotta rep the Star Wars, you know, say what you will about. Come on, but it's a cool cup. I didn't want to pull out a mug tonight, honestly. Because the mugs right now need to be recycled right now. I need to put in something new tonight.

unknown 6:28

Yeah.

Jon Dzyuba 6:28

What about you, Mr. David? What's you what you drinking tonight?

David McIntyre 6:32

Tonight I come to the table bearing fresh new gifts. Uh tonight I am rocking uh lovely coffee that my wife got me from the Indian Caffeine Company. Come on now. It's called Bangalore Dreams. It embodies the bot the vibe of Bangalore Bangalore City with its fruity notes of pomegranate, apple, and a pleasant acidity with hints of orange and rose, is the real deal. Rounded body with a long finish, it's delish. So that is the Indian trading company. Thanks, Lord James, uh, that she just found for us. And uh, I'll probably try the next one because the next one is a is a red wine uh type of wine, uh coffee. Um so but um I actually quite enjoy this coffee. It's it it had a little it had a little bite to me initially on the first on the first sip. It was like then it said now taste this boy. And then it just went like that, and in the back of my mouth, I was like, oh la la la. Come on. So um, yes, this is this has been a lovely cup, it's a little bit different because I don't always do a lot of fruity flavors. Remember, I told you right in coffee, it equals acidity, and so they've managed to back down the acidity, and this is kind of a light medium roast, so um it's very nice, and I highly recommend it out there to the good people, and it does help me to be quite conversational, but in a smart way.

Phillip Rich 8:31

Well, that's what it's all about, David, is conversation sprinkled with smartness. I think that's very important.

David McIntyre 8:38

So now my other coffees don't give me smartness, they just give me passion.

Jon Dzyuba 8:47

Yeah, those need to be retired.

New Devotional And New Website

David McIntyre 8:49

So hey, before we leave this segment, um, for everybody out there, we want to also let you in on two things we've been working on. Um, the first thing that we've been working on, um, drum roll, please. Um we've been crafting a new devotion, and I'm happy to say that we have finally finished this. Uh, it was based on our series that we did back several months ago called I'm over it. And it's when you're tired, burned out, when you're tired, burned out, and ready to quit. And so this devotional is a 14-day devotional that's designed to help you to recognize where you are and then begin to do the work to work your way into a healthier place. As you guys know, when you're over it, there's not a whole lot of good about being over it. And so when you when you're in that place, that's where compromise happens. That's where we quit and give up and just give over to our flesh, and then as a result of that, all kinds of things happen that we don't intend to that further take us down the hole. And actually, being over it has something to do with what we're talking about tonight, in my personal opinion. Um this book is going to help you, it's going to give you a roadmap back, and then it's going to help you to begin to look forward and see the possibility of what could be if you maintain the pattern that the book begins to lay out. Philip, you want to add any more thoughts to that?

Phillip Rich 10:39

Yeah, I think it's good just to absorb what's being written in this devotional in terms of like what I love about it the most is that it's so relatable to everyday life, but yet we're coming straight from the scripture. We're talking about things that happened to people in the Bible, recorded in the Bible that seem almost like uncanny, as far as wow, humans really haven't changed, you know, throughout the thousands of years, because the same stresses and exasperation and things like that that maybe Elijah went through or David. We know he had a lot of situations where he was definitely over it and expressed how over it he was. And so this devotional here, it's what I love about it is the practicality. It's not anything that's gonna be too lofty and too like it's it's not meant to be out of your reach when you read these things. We we designed it to speak to practical matters, and so I think it's gonna be a good thing to add to your uh just to your daily devotion time. Uh, take your time with it and and just work through it, be willing to you know pray the prayers in it and all those types of things. I mean, it's it's it's there for you just as a good reference and a good tool.

David McIntyre 11:54

We can find this book. Um, if you go to our next surprise, our new website. You can find the book on Bible Brosbrew.com. That's Bible Bros Brew. Bible's Bible, Bible Bros Brew. Sorry, I had to get that right.com. Our new website. We just launched it this week. It is up for you. You can go over to the book page on the website, and on the book page, you'll find an opportunity there where you could actually purchase the book. Um, if it's it is an ebook, uh, I want to do, I do want to tell you that it's an ebook. So you can get it on Gumroad, which is where our site leads you to, or you can search for it on Amazon. You'll actually find it for a special price right now on Amazon. So you may want to take a look for that. But we really want to encourage you to grab this book and uh just enjoy it. And while you're there, enjoy the website and check it out too. And as always, if you've got any feedback, you find an error we made or anything like that, just feel free to drop us a nugget at GotBrew at BibleBrosbrew.com. So uh avail yourselves to these resources and tools, and you're gonna hear us talk about that book a lot over the next couple of weeks as we promote it and share it with more and more people. All right, that's what's in the cup. Now we're gonna get into what's in the word.

TikTok Claim: People Stop Believing

David McIntyre 13:36

So tonight uh we're going to take a look as we've been over the last couple of weeks, we've been doing uh some reactions, and we're gonna react on a couple of things that we found uh for just a couple of more weeks. But tonight we found a video that talks about the number one reason why people are leaving the church. And um, I thought you guys would find this interesting. Philip and I uh definitely found it interesting, and it led to a lot of good conversation uh that we think we ought to have here with you guys. So uh we're gonna play two videos. You're gonna hear two answers to how to resolve the problem, and then Philip and I are gonna share some thoughts with you about where we really see the problem and how to resolve it.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Because I just ran across a TikTok that shared two very troubling artistics about the church, and we need to have an honest and frank conversation about it. And it had said that the public religious research institute in pews, they reported the number one reason why people leave the church. And PRRI said it was about 67%. And y'all, it's not because they didn't like the programs, it's not because they didn't like the pastor, it's not because they didn't like the music or the building or any of that stuff. No, the number one reason why people leave left the church is because they simply stopped believing. Churches, we've allowed people to be consumers of the word instead of doers of the word. And that is why I am so passionate about outreach. You guys people have got to take the word of God and the gifts that they have been given when they get saved, and they have to apply that through serving, through moving, through doing. And if all that you're offering on a Sunday is the 20-minute message, or it's not enough. And so uh we've got to do better about this, and yes, it is hard, and yes, it requires us to be intentional about doing that, to get out and create opportunities for our people, but it is no critical. The number one reason why people are walking away from Jesus is because we are not leading the charge, we are allowing people to just sit and receive a message instead of then giving them an opportunity to apply it. So go get my outreach stuff. Like there, you don't have to be a large church with a large budget. You can create meaningful, inexpensive outreach into your community, you can create opportunities for your people to move and serve and grow, and we need to be doing that. So I've got free resource on resources on my website, but right now it's still nine dollars because I am slowly adding the things that I need to add to it, but it's still nine dollars right now. It is my 52-week.

David McIntyre 16:54

Can I add some? Sorry, I'm sorry, you can you can stop it right there.

Jon Dzyuba 16:58

Yeah, I wanted well, yeah. I wanted to add two things. Uh, first of all, she's on to something, and I know she's on to something because she must have a really good cup of coffee right now. And I'm telling y'all there's something vital about reading the word with a good cup of coffee. Second of all, um well, this is I guess that's kind of becomes the next question. She said outreach is a major thing. Yeah, that's me to have some controversial thoughts, but I wanted to put it out there to you guys first. See what uh what would your response be? Or did you want to go ahead and look at the second video too?

David McIntyre 17:37

We'll come to the second one in just a second. I I first of all want to put um first of all, this young lady, uh what's her name again?

Jon Dzyuba 17:46

Uh April. April Thompson? April Thompson.

David McIntyre 17:50

Um April, we're not we're not we're not here to try to beat you up. So uh just in case you see this, and anybody else, I'm my objective, and I know Philip, and I know it's not his objective, we're not here to try to beat April up. And the real but the reality is April also has a slant because she has the resources to help you to not follow it. Um, but she's coming from a certain place, and she's not necessarily a hundred percent wrong. But I think that, and Philip, I'll give it to you first. It's an interesting place to start with that what everybody needs to do more is outreach.

Outreach Versus Rooted Faith

Phillip Rich 18:42

Yeah, I I think um on the list of things that we gotta go back to the the primary reason why according to what she said, people are leaving, it's because they simply stopped believing. That was, I believe, the direct quote. So if in my mind, if if you think that increasing outreach is somehow gonna have an effect on your belief level in the word, in the things of God, I think that's missing a vital, vital element here, man. I I really do. I think that uh anything we do outreach-wise is gonna be a fruit of us having a connection with the Lord first, you know, like any genuine outreach will be that. I think it's dangerous actually to sit here and say, you know what, you're having trouble believing? Let's plop some tracks into your hand and send you out into a neighborhood and knock on doors and get people saved. Then you'll believe. Yeah, then you'll believe it's like not according to Romans 10, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

unknown 19:50

Right.

Phillip Rich 19:50

That is what produces faith. Um, and I always think about what well, in this case, I thought about the parable of the sower when Jesus said about the rocky soil, like it's the second type of ground that he mentioned in that parable. He said, These are the people that hear the word, they get excited about it, and their excitement lasts for a little while, but then when the first temptation or persecution comes along or anything that could possibly knock them off the path, it says they because they had no root, yeah, they had no root, they withered away. To me, it's not a thing of I honestly think people aren't consuming the word enough, right? I'm just because she said we we gotta be go from being consumers of the word to doers of the word, dude. If you are not rooted in that word strong enough, you can't do it.

David McIntyre 20:45

Yeah, you you literally can't, it's it's so different, Philip. I'm sorry to interrupt you. No, you're good, man. It's so different than the work we do to go into an environment and expect people to do a job that you haven't trained them to do, right? It's ridiculous, yeah. Because you can't just sit an employee at a computer and say, All right, get to work and expect them to produce anything. Yeah, you've got to train people and then you put them out. You let them do some work, you see what the opportunities are, and then you add some fresh training and you keep putting them out, and they go out and come back, and you train them some more, they go out, come back, train them some more. And so there it should be a there should be a pattern there, and that's that's honestly what church is supposed to be. We train you on Sundays, you are also doing your own training during the week, and while you're out there during the week, you're also out there living this Christian life amongst other people, and you're coming up against people who feel one way, people who are going through this, somebody's got a situation over here, and you're Responding and reacting to that, and then you might learn something about yourself. You might learn I don't have nearly enough compassion for people. And so the training begins to grow in compassion because the Bible says when Jesus was healing people, that he was moved with compassion. And so we know that compassion was driving so much of what Jesus was doing for the people. I'm sorry, Philip, I didn't mean to get stay that long in front of you there.

Phillip Rich 22:27

No, no, you're good, man. I just think if someone's willing to say that the reason why they stopped uh or left the church was because they simply stopped believing, I have to really wonder what is it that they were believing to begin with? Like what was the basis of their belief? What did they what did they base their belief on? You know, and when you when you break it down, and I'm not trying to sound like a a negative Nancy or anything like that, but a lot of the people that I I'm assuming that probably took this survey, they're probably attending churches where instead of a pastor really digging into the word and explaining the word and expositing the word, it's more along the lines of a TED Talk style sermon where they may reference one or two scriptures, no digging into it, no providing definitions, no uh sense of what the original language actually meant, no clarity or understanding of the scripture, just more like motivation, personal development. So they don't have a lot to cling on to. Right. It it sounds, it's it's it's what what we it's Christian adjacent, but it may not be the word. You know what I mean? So that if all you got to hold on to is that type of teaching, which I don't even know that we could qualify that as teaching to be honest with you, if all you have to hold on to is that type of stuff, you have very little roots. Your your roots are small, and the first really sunny day, your plant's gonna dry up, it's gonna fry in the sun because there's no roots to hold you down and anchor you where you need to be held. So um I I'm just in that that camp of let's go back to the what was the basis of your belief? You know, that that's a very important question to ask in these situations. But um, I I I don't think that you if you have had a genuine experience, you know, uh I know that can get a little wonky when you talk about experiences, but if you had genuine understanding and clarity from the word, and it's and and the eyes of your understanding have been enlightened to what the word says, I find it very difficult to believe that you could just stop believing. I I don't think that's I think that your foundation was in something other than the actual scriptures. Uh that's that's all I can say.

Jon Dzyuba 24:55

Can I oh go ahead, go ahead.

David McIntyre 24:58

Yeah, I was gonna say, John, you know, we've got to um we've got we've got to deal with the first root of this. And to me, you kind of started Philip with faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Um you guys it is impossible to

Experiences Without Discipleship Fade

David McIntyre 25:20

believe. What does that scripture say? How can he believe except he first hear? Right.

Phillip Rich 25:29

Right.

David McIntyre 25:30

And so you can't I'm gonna give an example, and I don't mean this in a bad way to anybody. And if there's anybody watching from my church, I'm certainly not casting aspersions or anybody's church, but I've watched over the years kids go away to camp. Um, just about every church I've been a part of has done that, and inevitably what happens is that these kids go away to camp and they have an encounter with God, and it's not a it's not necessarily a disingenuous encounter. I think some of it is born out of the excitement and the whole kind of sense of, you know, I gotta have an encounter with God, yeah, kind of mentality that kids will take on, and they'll see, well, so-and-so had an encounter with God, and their encounter was genuine. And then, you know, somebody else has an encounter with God, but they were kind of faking it because they didn't want to feel left out, yeah. And so you go through all of this stuff, and people try to have these experiences, but then what I see happen is they come back, and you know, it's it's just like you said, Philip, about the the parable of the sower. They come back and they're on fire, but yet they're not rooted, and their roots aren't getting any deeper. So week after week after week, their roots are shriveling up. There's no nourishment happening, there's no watering happening, there's no feeding that's happening, there's no covering, there's none of that, and so they loot after a while that excitement tampers off, and then they're back right where they were, but then they even feel worse than that because they say, I thought I got something, yeah, I thought I had, and so they get discouraged and they start questioning God, they start questioning everything because of the quality of the experience they had at a camp or something like that. But nobody comes back from the camp and says, okay, now that we've had camp, we're going to go into some really strong, let's just grow our faith and start spending time reading the word, talking about that word, and understanding what was said and what it means for us today. And so, because that rooting isn't happening, because that nurturing isn't happening, just because we just leave the kids to have an experience and we do nothing on the back end to reinforce that experience so that they they actually grow from it, even the ones that might have faked it a little bit, they can still grow from what happens afterwards when you invest in it. But it's like, no, they leave and they go on family vacation, they start doing this, they start doing that, the devil's whispering in their ear, all this stuff is happening. There's a girl that's involved, there's a boy involved, and all these distractions start getting in and taking over their lives, and boom, they're gone. And the same thing happens to us as adults. We'll go down front at church or raise our hand in the P one week because we feel really moved by the message we heard, but then when we don't take it any further than having heard that message on Sunday, which takes us to the next thing that's critically important. No man can be a Christian with Sunday alone.

Phillip Rich 29:16

Come on, bro. Come on.

David McIntyre 29:17

We were never designed for that, we were designed to spend our each and every day in relationship with the Father, learning of Him, understanding who He is, praying and being connected to Him. And Sunday is a day where we all come together and we believe that God has a word for every single person in that audience. He speaks to every person a different way to connect with them, and they can take that into next week, and that on top of their own study and growth and spiritual time produces a result that is designed to draw you nearer to Christ. And what does the scripture tell us? Draw near to me, and I'll draw near to you. But so many of us are not drawing near to him, and then we feel like he is letting us down, so we kind of stop believing in the next natural thing that happens when you're not sure whether you believe all this stuff anyway. You just stop going to church, yeah. And then you'll say that that's when people say stuff like, Well, I believe, I believe in God, I just don't go to church, or I just don't do religion and that kind of stuff. And then it's like, oh gosh, now we gotta get into what you really believe. And you know, it turns out your sister died when you were a kid, you prayed, you asked God to save her, she died anyway, you've never understood why, and so you've you stopped believing, you know, it's all that stuff, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

Jon Dzyuba 30:52

It's kind of like uh what I was gonna say earlier, it's in tandem with that, which is what uh Uncle Phil, you mentioned this too. When you said experience, that kind of like people's experience, that kind of stood out to me. And because oftentimes that is their that is people's uh reality is that my experience with this situation is is this reality. Now, sometimes that's not always a bad thing because um you know, oftentimes that's how we know that uh our God is real, our savior is real, because we experienced him when we did pray, we did see a prayer answered, and we saw the the word come to life through people's lives, and so people's experiences aren't always a bad thing, but oftentimes that kind of sets um their foundation to their relationship, especially if it's like a premature, you know, relating your experience, your faith, and the foundation of your faith to your experiences kind of like we talked about um being over it a few months ago. Um and not and to segue into the next video, you also mentioned your childhood experiences, which I think that this next guy uh kind of hits on pretty well. I'm not gonna spoil it, but it's uh it's a it's a major factor in this whole conversation regarding people leaving the church. Uh if you're ready, we can play this next video if unless we had a second thought before we can.

David McIntyre 32:20

No, there are plenty of second thoughts, but go ahead. Second third four.

Jon Dzyuba 32:24

All right, check this out, fellas.

Second Video: Childhood Church Effects

SPEAKER_00 32:30

No pastor wants to hear this. Two of the largest religion research organizations independently asked people why they left the church, and it's not what we'd expect. The number one answer by a massive margin is that they simply stopped believing. 67 in PRI's data, 51% in pews. So not the music, not the program, not the politics. They stopped believing in the core claims of faith. What's uncomfortable about that? Well, it means that you can't just change a program and someone changes what they believe. Right now, what can we do about this? Well, it turns out the experience that you have as a child in your church between the ages of five and 17 is the single strongest predictor of whether you will identify with faith as adults, not small group curriculum, not Sunday morning production, what happened in your childhood. If a child's experience of church is negative, meaning judgmental, confusing, boring, hypocritical, harmful, the data says that there's roughly a 70% chance they will not identify with any religion as an adult. But if it's positive, there's an 84% chance they'll stay. Invest in your students, invest in your kids' ministry.

David McIntyre 33:35

I couldn't have said it any better myself. Well, you know, even that is still like so. What these two people have done for us is they've they've given they're giving a piece of the puzzle.

Phillip Rich 33:49

Yeah.

David McIntyre 33:50

But they're they're not they're not, in our opinion, painting the whole picture because um, you know, I was telling Philip earlier, one of my frustrations throughout my church life, and um, I have three children, and uh, you know, so we watched our children in church go through the different levels of kids' ministry, you know, from infant all the way through uh teen ministry and even some young adult ministry stuff. And you know, one of the things that's always frustrated me, at least in the experiences that I've seen, is that the young the youth ministry that gets the attention is the one where the pastor's kids are at that stage. Um, you know, so if they've got toddlers, then it's like, hey, we want to make sure the toddlers ministry is doing great, doing great, because their kids are there. Wow and not because it's the nature of we want everybody's kids to be great. Now I'm I'm thankful that I found ministries recently that it doesn't, their kids aren't there, and they place a big emphasis on children's ministry. My dad has always taught me that it's these younger ministries that you've got to give attention and focus to because this is where your church is coming from. You know, he he he taught me that the reality is that the people that are in kids' ministry become the people sitting in the pews, and you have to train them up and uh in the do your part in training them up. But once again, that it you know it puts a lot of responsibility on the children's ministry and on other people, and it takes responsibility off the parents. Yeah, and remember the the this Christian walk is a walk, just go back and read your New Testament. All these things that were happening were not just happening at a local church, those local churches were in people's homes, and they were sitting around, they were sitting in these homes, and they were listening to these preachers come over and preach and share the gospel, and they would read these letters that the apostles wrote, and it was it was imperative that their whole family was formed around these.

Parents Cannot Outsource Faith

David McIntyre 36:30

You begin to look at Timothy and some of the requirements for the deacon and the elders in the church, and one of the requirements for all of them was it was the quality of your family that played a role, and whether or not you qualified to be a deacon or an elder or a leader in the church, which meant which meant you had to be teaching and training your own kids up, and that's that's that's a societal sickness, and I mean that when I say that, that we have right now because it's happening we're from our other business that we do. We're seeing it. We're seeing that so many of these schools, part of the reason these kids are failing, you know. We share on our other podcasts that you know, some of the statistics say that these kids can't do math past fourth grade, they can't read uh outside of an elementary level. And we look at that and everybody will say, Well, blame the teachers, but the teachers are saying no, blame those parents that won't cooperate with us when we tell them their child is failing, they're not moving. I think everybody shares a little bit of blame, but it starts at home, and that that's it's at school, it's in life. You know, the success. One of the reasons Philip has such successful children is because he trained his children up. He and Stephanie trained those children up at home to become what they are. They didn't depend on a school to do it, they didn't depend on a church to do it, they didn't go around and ask other people to raise their children up so they would know which way they were supposed to go. They did it. It's not easy work, but it's because of what they did that they should expect to see some fruit from their children down the road. Amen. Same thing with me and uh my wife, and my wife did a lot of the heavy lifting. We trained our children up, they didn't always go right, they didn't always do the right thing, they made dumb decisions at times, but our children bless us now, and we're reaping some of the harvest of what we've sown in our kids, and so you can't just pass that responsibility off to the church. Just like you got to train yourself up and you've got to study and own your study and your relationship with the Lord, you also have to lead your family into that same relationship. And if you're a man, that means your wife and your children. If you're a wife, you're supposed to be an example for your husband and a leader for your children.

Phillip Rich 39:09

Yeah, absolutely. Let me say this too, David. Um, one of the things that my wife and I settled early on in terms of our children was that we didn't want um anything else to have a majority of the impartation into their hearts and minds over us doing it. Um, right. We made it a point to do devotionals every night. We still do, every single night. We have what we call reading time. We just take about 30 minutes or so and we go go over a scripture. It could be a different passage each night or whatever it is, and we just talk about it, just read it, read it in different translations and just discuss. And then whatever God might speak to one person or whatever the Holy Spirit kind of stirs up in each one of us, we share it. And I believe it's that fellowship over the word that has helped our girls to become anchored in the truth. And it's something that we we didn't we just didn't want it to be a thing where uh their relationship with God, quote unquote, began and ended whenever they entered and exited the church. You know what I mean? We we didn't want that to be the case, we didn't want anything taken the place of personal responsibility for your spiritual life, not putting it into the hands of anybody else. Because in my mind, and and I don't want to sound like I'm slamming church because I don't believe that that's a good thing to do, but in my mind, ask yourself a question. If your church were to shut down tomorrow, come on, if your relationship with God suffers any inch, then you've founded your relationship with God on the wrong thing. I and I thought about it, it's like if if the church shut down tomorrow, our relationship with God would not suffer one bit because we believe in having a relationship with God through his word, through personal study of it outside of whether or not we go to church. And I'm not saying it's bad or wrong to go to church or not go to church. You know what I mean? Um, I'm just saying like we have to prioritize the personal connection with the Lord through the word over, okay, we just dump it into somebody else's hands and it's their responsibility. And we we haven't taken personal ownership of our spiritual life. Um we didn't want to go that route because we've seen how that turns out. I mean, why do you think preacher's kid is such a cliche now? You know, uh it's one of those things where, you know, a lot of times the preacher's kids are the ones going the wildest because they most of the time just attended church because it was expected of them to do that. But sadly, when the rubber meets the road, they really didn't develop a personal relationship with God. It was more just uh kind of the label that was put on the well, they're the pastor's son, the pastor's daughter, and they never really learned how to connect with God for themselves. Um, that to me, uh I've seen the fruit of that way. I've seen the fruit of that route, and we knew we didn't want to do that. We wanted our kids to have a personal relationship with God, even beyond what my wife and I could tell them, you know, or or in part to them. We wanted them to be able to stand on their own two feet spiritually, and so we've tried to do the best we could to make that happen.

David McIntyre 42:30

And you know, Philip, you you're I love that because what you just described

If Church Closed Would You Quit

David McIntyre 42:36

is what every Christian believer needs to take on as their own, and it starts with you. Yeah, you've got to look at your own life, and you've got to say, like Philip said, if my church closed down tomorrow, would I would my relationship with God end? And if it does, he like he said, you got a problem, and we we can't our our relationship with the Lord, our love for him, and our belief in him cannot be founded on going to church on Sundays. It can definitely start there. That connection is a good connection, and so many people have come to Christ through going to church with somebody, having a relationship where they got connected at church, they heard something, God moved on them, and they gave their lives over to Christ. And from that point forward, they took on the next steps and the next steps. That's perfectly fine, but you've got to have something that's beyond the church. Um, the other thing that I wanted to say, um, and I know this is gonna sound like it's off the topic off the subject field, but I think there's something important to say. That the thing that also, besides just uh not believing, one of the reasons why so many people don't believe. Is because they look at the lives of other Christians and they see hypocrisy. Yeah. Or what's perceived as hypocrisy. And specifically, what they say and how they live don't match. Though what they what they say on Sunday, they definitely don't live that throughout the week. And people see that in your lives, and it makes them question God because they don't know how you can do that. They don't understand it. It would be no different than you know, Lloyd and I doing marriage counseling. We got the worst relationship of everybody in the room, but we're sitting here counseling everybody, telling you how to make it better. You would look at that and you'd be like, Why are we here?

Phillip Rich 44:49

Right.

David McIntyre 44:50

Why are we listening to these two? They need more help than anybody else. And right, it's it's the same thing. You gotta, but that goes back to your own personal walk with God. I don't know why people sometimes live a different life than the one they espouse. I don't know why people will declare that they're one thing and go out and do another thing. All I know is I gotta keep my eyes on Jesus. And I gotta keep walking with him. And that's the mindset that you've got to take on in your Christianity. You cannot let other people drag you off of your walk. There was a time early on in my life, if my pastor had had a failing or something that had happened like that, I probably would have fallen apart.

Phillip Rich 45:42

Right.

David McIntyre 45:42

Because I was so connected with him and what he was teaching. But I we I got off of that quickly. Yeah. And and what I began to learn was later on, I began to learn that there were some things that he was just a little off on. He wasn't intentionally trying, I don't think, to mislead us. But as I've studied and looked at it, I was like, I was like, oh, I think that this is a misunderstanding here. And then there are things that he's come out and said later on, many years later, say, forgive me for teaching this, I misunderstood it. Yeah, so you know, you you can't let your faith in God rest on anything but the word and your time with him. And now what you can we be we need to be balanced because you cannot now go and put yourself in a closet and saying it's only me and Jesus, and then you come out of that closet with some creepy stuff going on. Yeah, but then you're like it's just me and Jesus, so I'm not listening to anybody tell me I'm wrong,

Hypocrisy And Owning Your Walk

David McIntyre 46:51

and so now you start believing some things that aren't true. You've gotta have it's your walk with God, but then you need the fellowship and help of the brethren with you to help to reinforce that walk and to bounce thoughts and ideas off of and to dig into the word with, and iron sharpens iron. The only reason Philip and I are here right now is because he sharpened me, I helped to sharpen him, and we were bouncing stuff all off for years. We've been bouncing stuff off of one another, and when one of us was wrong, we'd be like, Well, consider this, and point in another direction, and point in one more accurate direction, then or we'd say, Oh, you know what, you're right. I didn't see that. That's sorry for calling you some foolishness, and we would move on, and you need good people, godly people in your life. And if somebody shows themselves not to be godly, then find somebody else, but don't don't quit on God because of people.

Phillip Rich 47:54

Amen to that, dude. Amen to that point. I definitely, I mean, just from my own experience, that that is something I hear so many times from people who either never came to the faith or walked away from the faith. It is almost always this thing of hypocrisy. Like, I I saw so many hypocrites in church. I just, I'm like, why bother? They're not doing it. Why should I do it? You know, why should I be sincere about it when they're being fake about it and that kind of thing? So you're right, David. It's like, um, but but like you said, you can't let your faith rise and fall on the shortcomings of other people or the lack thereof. It makes me think of that script that not scripture, it's a lyric uh in a song by Lecrae, which you know, I know Lecrae has had his moments and stuff like that, but uh there was a song that he did I thought was really uh pretty good. It was called Time Peace. And in that song he said, can we blame the sins of a reverend for all of our irreverence? You know, like yeah, it's true. It's like you can't keep using that excuse because a lot of times people are using that excuse as a smokescreen. It's not, it's not the real reason why they don't want to do the word. It's easy to say that, but at the end of the day, you will still have to stand before God at the end of your life. And whether or not you thought everybody was a hypocrite on the whole planet, that does not negate the fact that you will stand before God for yourself, you know. So you got to think about how that's gonna end up. It's like, okay, I could sit here and be mad at everybody for not doing or not living up to the expectations of the Christianity, whatever, whatever. You know what? I will come face to face with my creator one day, and I don't think he's gonna accept that as an excuse as to why I never signed on to this thing, you know. So um, we gotta think about that stuff, man. But yeah, we we really do, Philip.

David McIntyre 49:49

You're so right. Um yeah, John, do you have a thought?

Jon Dzyuba 49:55

I think uh to make it brief, I think that uh a lot of it found the same thing we've said for the past forever. Do your research, dig into the word, and do your just read and uh and it's it's it's kind of apparent to me to to say something like that because I as have been talking to this dude at work that that's just been like to kind of threw Christianity to the side where he grew up in the Christian home and had chosen other religions, and he would often bring it down to like you know, I question Christianity because I ask questions like you know, if we know we know we know what's gonna happen, then why do we even pray for things if there's you know predestination or whatever? Why do we even pray and ask God? You know, why did like you know, just like theological questions that kind of just tied him out of Christianity, out of other religions too, but it's and it just became a matter of like self-serviceness, in words just you know, nothing about it, nothing makes more sense than serving my own religion and whatnot. Uh right, and uh and a lot of it to me is just an example of like instead of you know, instead of digging into the word and leaning into God and finding answers for the for your curiosities and your questions, um you lean out, you tap out, and you said this is too much to understand, I don't get it, and you just kind of clock out of Christianity. And so again, there's there's a deeper understanding that you receive when you just decide to lean forward into Jesus and it man, it's it's vital. That's all I'll leave it as. And plus get that, you know, get uh April's uh outreach resources and whatnot to make sure that you know we can I'm being sarcastic, I apologize and just to just say one more time April's not a hundred percent wrong, right?

David McIntyre 52:01

Because what she is saying is that a faith that is not exercised is empty, and so there comes a point where you're studying, you're digging into God's word, and the word clearly says, you know, you're supposed to love one another. You know, if you find a brother in need, go to them, help them, etc. If you never exercise that, then you're not really fully experiencing what the word is, because a part of the word is in the living it and execution of it. So she's right, but it's not an outreach program, yeah. Because you can't what you can do is you can't get a Sunday TED talk, go out to serve the homeless on Wednesday, and then think you're okay. You're still coming up, you're still coming up short. So that's not it. And just like with the other guy, I think his name is Brady, um, just like with the other guy, you can't send your kids to summer camp, can't send them to Bible study in church and just hope everything goes well. No, you've got to take authority in that situation, and you've got to ensure that it goes well. Because I'm gonna tell you guys honestly, all of my kids' experience in children's and youth ministry was not good.

Phillip Rich 53:26

Amen.

David McIntyre 53:27

And there were times where my wife and I had to get involved to protect our children from people. We didn't quit because of the people, but we did protect our kids because of people. So you just have to, you have to, you have to be an adult, you have to be mature about this and raise yourself up, raise your family up, and then go on and see what the Lord will do. I do like what you said, Philip. Um, you stand before the Lord alone.

unknown 54:04

Amen.

David McIntyre 54:05

You're not gonna find your 500-member church or 20,000-member church standing behind you,

John 6 And The Work Of Belief

David McIntyre 54:10

cheering you on. You and the Lord, it's you and the Lord, and there is to be no cover. You're gonna be exposed and naked before the Lord, and ideally, we'll feel great about that because we've walked with him and there's nothing hidden from him that we wouldn't want to be completely naked in front of him with.

Phillip Rich 54:31

Amen.

David McIntyre 54:32

Right, all right, you guys. I think that's gonna call a wrap. But um, can I just encourage you guys to go look at just one scripture real quick? If you read verses 26 through 28, it basically Jesus is getting on the people that are with him because he had just moved from um, you know, he'd just done the whole thing where he had fed the 5,000. Um, he stayed behind at the mountain to pray. Then he got up at some point he went and walked across the water to the disciples out in the boat, and all of that story happens there. The people wanted to know when the next morning came, is where did he go? They finally found out that he had he was on the other side. Uh, and they're like, wait a minute, there wasn't any boat here. How'd you get over there? And so they were inquiring about all that. And um when they asked him, How'd you come here? Jesus answered them, and he didn't say, 'Well, I came by the boat.' He said, 'You're seeking me not because of the miracles,' but basically because I fed you and you were filled.

Phillip Rich 55:54

Yeah.

David McIntyre 55:56

And so he tells them, don't work for the meat that's going to perish, but meat that endures unto everlasting life, which is kind of what we're telling you right now. Don't go for just the meat on Sunday. Go get you life meat that's going to feed you forever, day in and day out in your week. And then the they asked him, uh, what shall we do that we might work the works of God? And verse 29 of John chapter 6 says, Jesus answered and said of them, said unto them, This is the work of God that you believe on him who he has sent. In other words, to believe means to be fully persuaded, to be self-persuaded. And he says, Your job is to believe. And so, for all these people who are saying they stop believing, they're not doing the work of the Lord. The work of the Lord is for us to believe. And the way that we believe is we dig into this word, we get to know him, we walk out this word, we help other people to grow in it, and over time, we become more and more like Christ in our everyday life. So I want to challenge you to do the work of believing. That's what we're that's what we're here for. We're glad that you guys have joined us tonight. Um, we're so these are some real interesting reacts, you guys, uh, that we've been dealing with, and we've got a couple of more that we're gonna deal with over time. Philip, do you have any last final word?

Phillip Rich 57:42

No, I've I'm you I think you topped it off beautifully. Uh we'll leave it at that, man. I I I appreciate what you said. Very well stated.

David McIntyre 57:53

Yeah, all right, you guys. So, and by the way, I just wanted to throw this up. Uh, thank you, John. Uh John went out and got the book.

Phillip Rich 58:03

Uh so

Book Plug And Final Sendoff

Phillip Rich 58:05

appreciate that.

David McIntyre 58:06

We hope you get a lot out of it, John. And and then if you would, don't feel free, please share with us how it helps you. We would love to know and love to hear your story of how it blesses and helps your life. Um, don't forget you can grab the book. John, if you'll throw that out one more time, you can grab the book. Uh, you can go to our website, Bible Brosbrew.com forward slash merch, or you can just go to the page and click on the merch button there. You can also search for it on Amazon. Uh, it'll be there. This is an ebook for you. So make sure you have like a Kindle or an ebook reader, or you have one of the ebook apps on your computer where you can pull down the book and read it. So uh, and then of course, don't forget to go visit our new website, BibleBrosbre.com. BibleBrosbrew.com. Uh stay with Jesus, people. Stay with Jesus. He is the answer to all of the questions. All right, until next time, don't forget to connect with us on social media. You can find us on TikTok, you can find us on uh Instagram. Uh I don't know where else we are. We're somewhere out there. And then don't forget to connect on YouTube. You can find us on Rumble, and don't forget the podcast platforms that you can check us out on, like Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and of course Pocket Cast, amongst many others. Choose your favorite podcast platform, and you can pull us down the audio version there. You can watch the video version on YouTube and Rumble. Until next time, I'm David, he's Phillip, that's John, and we're out.