I’m Over It | Walking Away From God

Has someone in the church hurt you? If you are being honest — really honest — that wound might be quietly reshaping how you see God. It happens more than anyone wants to admit, and it is one of the most dangerous domino effects in a believer’s life.

David, Phil, and Jon dig into the reality of church hurt in this episode — what it does to your heart, why it spreads if you leave it unchecked, and how a root of bitterness can grow so deep it starts pulling you away from God altogether. Jesus Himself warned us in Matthew 18:7 that offenses will come. The question is what we do when they do.

They get honest about the moments when hurt, mistreatment, and disappointment from fellow believers tempt us to walk — and they share the key anchors that help you stay the course without pretending the pain is not real. This is not a conversation about toxic positivity or just pushing through. It is about processing the hurt without letting it cost you your faith.

Grab your Bible, brew something strong, and pull up a chair. This one hits close to home for a lot of people.

Drop a comment and tell us: have you experienced church hurt, and what helped you stay?

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Transcript

A Frustrated Start And Setup

David McIntyre 0:00

There are days when you've just had enough. It doesn't matter if it was in the moment or over the course of the whole day. Sometimes you just get to the place where you say, I'm over it. And not just over it, I'm completely over it. Today we're gonna talk about something that's been bugging me that I'm over. And I can't wait to share it with you. And look, gather all of your former church friends around because this is for you. Next on Bible Bros and Brew. I'm David. I'm probably gonna re-record that opening because it wasn't filled with love and joy. And we are so glad that you guys have joined us today. Look, it's been a rough start to this episode, and it's making me wonder if we should even be doing this series anymore because each week has lived up to its title for all of the wrong reasons. But nonetheless, we've got coffee, we got bros and broettes hiding in the background. Yes, so all is well. Uh, of course, I'm not here by myself, I'm doing it with friends, and this is in the middle. You have the illustrious Philip Bridge, and on the end, you have John Tubo. Oops. Um, oh, what was that? Make sure those fingers are right now. Don't slip up and give an unholy finger. Uh an unrighteous finger, a finger of unrighteousness. Wow. Um, and uh tonight we're gonna be talking about, we're just chatting a little bit tonight, and um, you know, we're gonna be talking about some things we've been seeing on the internet, some things that we have even experienced ourselves, um that really, you know, you find people saying, I'm over it, but then sometimes you have to evaluate their over it and uh find out what's the real root of their over it, and is there another pathway that could have been taken or another approach that could have been had in order to change certain outcomes? So we're gonna talk about that in a minute, but before we do, let's find out what's in the cup.

Phillip Rich 2:57

I love it. Well, okay, sorry.

David McIntyre 3:01

As you guys know, we are coffee drinkers here. Uh, some of us are cups a day kind of people, others of us just play with it. Uh, and others of us still call energy drinks coffee, and I don't believe in that. So uh we will judge John for that. Wow, the Lord will judge him too, because the Lord likes regular coffee, the Lord doesn't like energy drinks. How do I know? Because he told me one day. Um, so anyway, uh let's start in the middle with Philip. Philip, what are you drinking tonight?

Phillip Rich 3:38

You know, I'm gonna have to bring it with Peregrine, dude. I've got to bring it. Um, this is their sangre de Christmas. That's why you see a little Christmas tree on there. Um, they do a special blend every year uh for Christmas time. And I had I think I got took advantage of a promotion there where they gave a free bag away, so I got I got a little extra extra something here. Um, it's just super good, man. It has notes of oh gosh, snickerdoodle, juniper, and chocolate. So um beautiful. Avail yourself, ladies and gentlemen, to the peregrine sangry day Christmas.

David McIntyre 4:17

Beautiful, nice, nice, filling the Christmas spirit, yes, before we even after it's happened.

Phillip Rich 4:25

Our tree is still up, by the way. We haven't taken our tree down yet, so praise God.

David McIntyre 4:30

I have to confess that my tree is still up as well. You don't make it sound like looking at it today like, what's going on? So John, how many of you? What are you drinking?

Jon Dzyuba 4:42

I have pulled myself a little well, something that I haven't gotten into um in a minute. Uh, if you're familiar with Members Mark, this is a uh if you're familiar with Members Mark, this is uh this this I think it's the Sam's Club brand. This is a sugar, uh oh my gosh, sweet cream brulee. That's what it was. I don't know for a second. Um, I found a sweet cream creamer. Uh no, no, it was a uh a sugar cookie, frosted sugar cookie, little cold foam. Dude, I can't escape the Christmas vibes. I can't escape the Christmas flavors. Y'all complain about a tree over there or something? Uh last I checked, it's like freezing out here, so the winter is still here. So uh no. I don't know what y'all are upset about personally. This coffee's good too. I'm keeping the conversation flowing, as Mr. David likes to say.

David McIntyre 5:40

So I feel obligated to answer Henry's question, which will also speak to Zeverist and help everybody know the difference. There's uh coffee, uh it says coffee and energy drinks. What's the difference? The difference is only one makes you conversational, and the one that makes you conversational is the coffee. The energy drink, though it may wake you up in the morning, as uh X said down below. Um it may wake you up, but it does not make you conversational. And the mornings need conversation, the afternoons need conversation, and even the early evenings need conversation, and the right cup of coffee is the only solution to becoming more conversational, yeah. Which is why I am drinking tonight New England Coffee's butter pecan. Oh, yes, had I not been dealing with the frustration of the evening, then I would be enjoying a high level of conversationalism in my cup of coffee. Now I'm needing to use my coffee as a de-escalator. Goodness gracious, and so it's de-escalating me so that I might be more conversational in just a few minutes.

Phillip Rich 7:08

We applaud you for that, baby. We applaud you for that.

The “Over It” Trend Online

Is Being Over It Biblical

David McIntyre 7:12

And therein is the coffee truth, yes. All right, that's enough about what's in our cups now. Let's get up to what we want to talk about tonight. Um, you know, we've been part of what's driven our conversation around um this kind of sense of being over it. Um, it kind of started with Philip and something that he was noticing, you know, by looking at and reading what people are saying on social media. And I'm seeing it, I believe John's seeing it too, but so many people are at this place where they're kind of they're kind of saying and feeling like they're over it. And it just depends on what it may be. It could be a job, it could be, you know, something in your personal life, how people treat you. Um, there's all, you know, there's a lot of anxiety um about things that are going on in our country right now. And there is a lot of with that anxiety, there are a lot of opinions about what is what. And there's this sense of a further parsing out of people on sides, and this separation and division that creates an even bigger sense of being over it. But then you also see some of the the smaller things, or some of the some of them I don't think are small at all, but you see where people add things that they're over, and so we wanted to talk about that a little bit because first of all, we wanted to ask the question is being over it biblical? And the answer to that question is a a resounding yes, that being over it is biblical, and the one that comes to mind right now is uh, and we'll talk about it later, uh maybe in another episode, but when we talk about 1 Kings 18 and 19, when we talk about Elijah, we see Elijah go through these this series of of issues where you know he's trying to tell Ahab about the rain. And you know, there's before that, you know, there's the whole situation where they're calling their, you know, calling false prophets down on Mount Caramel, and you know, Elijah says, Whose God is the real God? Uh, now let me prove that my God is still God. Never mind, Philip. Sorry, that was still in my mind there.

Phillip Rich 9:39

Man, shout out, dude. I gotta give it to you on that.

Elijah’s Crash After Victory

David McIntyre 9:44

Um, but you know, Elijah had the situation where you had all these prophets of Baal insisting that their God was God and Ahab believed in them and all of that good stuff. And then over here you had a lone Elijah, and so you had that situation going down. You get kids eaten up by bears, you know, you get the prophets, a hundred prophets, you know, killed along the way, and uh then it rains because Elijah calls, well, God causes the rain to come down, but he uses Elijah as the barometer and tells people when to move and do stuff. And then Ahab tells Jezebel, I say all that, you read you read chapter 18 in the beginning of 19, and at the beginning of 19, um Jezebel says something very interesting. She finds out from Ahab what Elijah has done, and she sends word to Elijah and basically says, you know what? Be it done unto me if I don't kill you by this time tomorrow. And Elijah freaks out about it, um, and they go, he and his servant go running, and so they go running. I forget where they ran to uh about Beersheba. They ran to Beersheba, and then Elijah goes still another day's journey beyond Beersheba, where he left his servant and ends up in a cave. And in that cave, he's like, Lord, just kill me. That's another way of saying I'm over it.

Phillip Rich 11:33

And in that chapter, David, John had it on the screen. Um, that verse is there.

God’s Gentle Care In The Cave

Reframing Church Hurt

David McIntyre 11:40

Uh oh, perfect. If you look at verse 10 or verse go back to nine, um, well, even go back a little further. Um go back up, go four. So in verse four, he says, While he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, he sat down under a broom tree and prayed that he might die. He said, I have had enough, Lord. He said, Take my life, for I am no better than my father's. Dang now. I just want to tell you, I think there's something important here. Look at the amazing things Elijah over the last little period of time before he comes to this, was involved in. This dude literally prays and calls fire down from heaven. Fire from heaven. That not only, you know, he had all the false prophets pour water around the altar, do all of this stuff just to make it seem impossible. And then God does the absolute impossible before that. The kids that were making fun of him just for making fun of him for having a bald head, these she-bears come out of the woods and eat all the children up that were making fun of him for being bald headed. If you if that's um I don't have to say, if that's not God, I don't know what is, but you understand, but you understand that in that moment in that time, this was God showing up on Elijah's behalf, right? Saying, You're that important to me, dude. And then we get rain pouring down where it should not have been. You know, Elijah keeps sending the servant back and forth to look for the cloud, to look for the cloud, and then he literally pulls a flash and outruns Ahab's chariot and outruns the rain to where he needs to be. And then he gets this one little word from this woman that says, I'm coming to kill you. And then he gets to this point where he's like, I'm done. I I'm just over it all, Lord. Kill me. It's just it's a wild thing to think about all that he had done and how he immediately came to this point of depression, and it's like, kill me. But then the Lord does something very interesting because you would think that maybe the Lord would be harsh with him. But we talked about it last week. It seems like over and over again, when people get over it in the Bible, God never deals with them in an ugly way, He never comes to them and be like, Over it, over it. Man, after all I just did, and you're talking about you're over it. Well, I mean, just look at it. The children of Israel in the wilderness, despite the cloud by day, the fire by night, manna from the end, water from a rock, they were always getting over it. And they were living, they were literally watching a miracle happen before them every single day, yeah, every single night, and they get over it and want to chase and you know, go after idols and worship other gods, even though their god was sitting right in front of them doing what most of us would consider the impossible. But instead, what God does with Elijah is he sets him in a cave and lets him take a nap. And then after while he's taking a nap, God had prepared food and drink for him, wakes him up and said, There's bread and water at your head, eat. He gets up and eat, he goes back to sleep again. The Lord prepares more food for him, and he eats and he sleeps again. And then after he's done that, he said they said that he had the energy after eating and drinking those two meals to last him for 40 days. Wow. Off of those two meals. And so in verse 9, we see that the Lord says Elijah entered the cave, spent the night, and the word of the Lord came to him saying, What are you doing here, Elijah? We don't see that the Lord yelled at him or anything like that. I believe the Lord was just as gentle with him as I'm being with you now, asking that question, What are you doing here, Elijah? And you know that what are you doing here is actually relevant to what we're gonna talk about in just a minute. And then Elijah gives his excuse. And I, you know, I want to read something to you for you. I was reading him a commentary about this, and it said something that I thought was um pretty profound. It says, the question, what are you doing here? Is ever God's call to the individual to reassess his or her position? It contains an implied rebuke and yet evokes confession of our fears and our feelings. I thought that was so good. If you'll pull that back up, John, and it was so good to God that he asked it twice, but he asked him, and then Elijah says in verse 10, I've been very zealous for the Lord, the God of hosts, he replied, but the Israelites have forsaken your covenant, torn down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I'm the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well. Goodness. So he had he had reasons why he was afraid and felt the way that he felt. So, what does the Lord do? Then the Lord says, Go out and stand on the mountain before the Lord. Behold, the Lord is about to pass by. And a great and mighty wind tore into the mountains and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. This looks very similar to what happened with Moses when God called him out to the mountain to say, Look at my back. I'll he asked the Lord to show him his face, and the Lord said, I will show you my background. And so you see something very similar happening here, but it's for a different purpose. After the wind, there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake, there was a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a still small voice. When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave. Suddenly a voice came to him and said, What are you doing here, Elijah? So we see it now the second time. And Elijah's response is the same. I've been very zealous for the Lord, the God of hosts, he replied, But the Israelites have forsaken your covenant, that's true. They've torn down your altars, and not only that, not only did they tear down God's altars, but they erected other altars to foreign gods. They've killed your prophets with the sword, which would this the beginning of 18 talks about how they killed the hundred prophets. Elijah assumed that was all that was left. We'll see in a minute, he was wrong. He says, I'm the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well. And so then the Lord took care of it. He said, Go back the way you came, go to the desert of Damascus. When you arrive, you are to anoint Hazael as king over Aram. You are also to anoint Jehu, son of Nimshe, as king over Israel. And Elisha, son of Shaphat from Abel Mahola, to succeed you as prophet. Then Jehu will put to death whoever escapes the sword of Hazel. Haziel will uh escape the and Elijah will put to death whoever escapes the sword of Jehu. So if Jehu doesn't get him, Hazael will. And if Hazael doesn't get him, then Elisha will. Nevertheless, the Lord says to Elijah, I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Bal and whose mouths have not kissed him. He's letting Elijah know, no, sir, you're not the only one.

Phillip Rich 20:46

Wow.

David McIntyre 20:47

There are 7,000 others who have not bowed the knee to Ball. So you're not it. So the Lord, I don't think, was saying that in an ugly way, but He shared with Elijah something that Elijah didn't know. And it kind of leads me to this, and I know I've talked long, you guys. I'm sorry.

Phillip Rich 21:10

Uh you're good, man.

David McIntyre 21:13

But it leads me to kind of one of my frustrations. You know, I just finished watching a video of this woman who talks about how she needed to um leave Christianity in order to get her life back. That the church she went to cost her to, you know, violate herself, to violate what was good and healthy for her. That the church that she went to, she says was ultimately a cult. You know, that that um you know that the purity drive in her church led her to not understand and know how to properly date anybody, which means you're hoeing around. Yeah, yeah. And she goes on and on and says that when I stopped going to the church, then I got the help I really needed, which was therapy. And the more the further away I got from the church, the better I felt. And I realized how much I didn't need that community in order to be who I am. And I was like, baby girl, you got it all twisted. You might as well be in a cave yourself, talking about all that these people had done to you and why you were now ready for to just end it with the Lord. And that's why this verse that Philip, I think Philip, if you'll share that now, is such a good verse, and then we'll talk some. And you know, maybe Philip, you want to share a little bit about how you feel about kings and and what we just read, and just wherever you want to go.

Phillip Rich 22:59

Gotcha. Now it's so funny that right when you called on me to talk, my camera went out. It's saying it's not connected or some weird thing. Let me see if I can just do something real quick.

David McIntyre 23:14

You know, I'm starting to think, you know, I'm starting to think this is the program, not just necessarily the user.

Phillip Rich 23:23

I'm hoping there's not user error at this point. Let me see here. Let me get out of it.

Jon Dzyuba 23:30

Now, might I add in segue, we have a live studio, perhaps? I'm just throwing that out there. I'm not trying to tease the audience, I'm not trying to do anything, but wouldn't that be cool?

Phillip Rich 23:44

It would be a lot less problematic. True indeed. We all were sitting in the same room. Thank you, Jesus.

Jon Dzyuba 23:51

I do want to add while Uncle Phil's getting his technical difficulties sorted away. Aha! I'm bad. Never mind. I'll hold that note. Are you sure you want to hold it down? You but we can we can still roll with it. It's a bit of a tangent going back to something Mr. David said earlier, but I don't want to lose the train that we're on right now. Gotcha. Um Henry was uh joking earlier that Elijah was kind of greedy. Um I I don't think it's harsh, I don't think that's untrue, but I do think that it wasn't necessarily prideful or selfish, but I do think that there was some fleshly doubt that just like that arise from the flesh. It was doubt and it was to me, it looks like doubt. But I'm not gonna lie to you. Uh I saw somebody say earlier too. That's just a human human response. I mean, how many how many Israelites saw the miracles that that God performed through Moses and still defied God by worshiping a calf or golden calf or whatever? Seriously.

Familiarity And Hard Hearts

David McIntyre 25:10

You know what's you know what's even interesting about that, and it's it's part of it's part of it's part of what makes being a Christian interesting. Because I think maybe what allowed them to go down that road of seeing you know cloud by day, fire by night, and all that, they became so accustomed to seeing God work, yeah, yeah, that they began to take it casually. Yeah, yeah, and that became problematic. So go ahead, Phil.

Phillip Rich 25:41

Oh man. Um I kind of forgot your initial reference you were telling me to talk about. What was it?

David McIntyre 25:48

Um go any go anywhere you want to go, dude. That at this point, no.

Phillip Rich 25:54

I feel you have um no, but but in regards to um the thing about seeing God God's miracles and him working over and over again in your life, and then after a while it becomes a little too familiar. You know, you there's that old saying, um, familiarity breeds contempt. And uh there's a lot of truth to that. It's like um, because one of the things that God said, uh, I forgot where it is, it's it's in the Bible, I promise. But he basically was saying, because they lightly esteemed me, then I'm gonna lightly esteem them, you know. Um and that's that's kind of what it boils down to. It's like all of a sudden they started lightly esteeming who God is. And uh you don't ever want to get caught doing that. You know, it's easy to get hard-hearted. And I think that's you know, God knows that. That's why he told us in Hebrews 3, he said, you know, do not harden your heart as the children of Israel did in the wilderness, you know, when they were uh being proven and tried and they saw God working for 40 years. He said, and I was grieved with that generation because they err in their heart, meaning err error, uh meaning they go astray or they make a mistake, uh, and that error is happening from their heart. There's something about the heart condition that's not right. And of course, we're not talking about the physical organ, the heart. We're talking about people's minds, the way they think, their spiritual condition, you know. Um, because if you drift away from the Lord, as this lady was talking about, it happens in the heart first. Before it ever happens externally, you know, it happens in the heart first. There's something that happened, and I don't know that lady's full story or whatever it is, but um you don't get to where she was without some level of it's a reaction to something that that that she obviously dealt with, and maybe some hurt has been there or some offense has been there or something like that, and it turned into uh this thing where all of a sudden I'm gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater. Everything about Christianity is stupid, you know, because more than likely it was a couple of people that hurt her or something along those lines, people who call themselves Christians or who believe, you know, who are part of the church or what that she was a part of, or whatever the case may be. Um if we're being honest, a lot of times, you know, we can't blame all of Christianity. We can't blame everybody who's a Christian or the entire church. Most of the time it boils down to a handful of people that we've actually interacted with that rubbed us the wrong way, that all of a sudden now we're ready to write the whole thing off because of what this person or that person did, you know, firsthand or whatever. But um you gotta be careful about that, man, because again, it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater to say all this God stuff is ridiculous, I just needed therapy. Um, and not even recognizing necessarily the mercy he had on you for you to still even be alive right now, you know. Um even for you to be alive to walk away from him, you know what I'm saying? Like that the mercy that that keeps you breathing right now. Yeah, I don't want to don't want to lightly esteem that or or not recognize that, you know. So um, but yeah, I I that's about all I got to say about that one there.

Honest Confession And Mercy

David McIntyre 29:30

But you know, that that's so good, Philip, because you know the reality is is that you know, I want to compare the church to your job for a minute if we could. When you're at work, people talk about you behind your back. You know, the whole water cooler thing you hear about, yeah. Around the copier machine thing that you hear about that happens, you know, people talk about you, people don't share the desire to see you do well. So at times people will sabotage you, they'll mistreat you, but you never hear about anybody being like, you know, oh gosh, I'm just quitting working all together, no more jobs for me. You know, you don't you don't hear that, but yet when it comes to the church and when it comes to the things of God, you go to a bad church and you get connected in with uh for whatever reason, whether they don't teach the word there, where there are manipulative people there, or all of that good stuff, and then because of what people do, you look at God and you blame him and saying, I'm quitting Christianity. Why aren't you quitting those people that are involved in what that's what's going on instead? Because just you know, Philip, will you read that verse again that you read in the preview? Uh Proverbs 19, was it?

Phillip Rich 31:00

Yeah, Proverbs, Proverbs 19, 3. Yep, yep.

David McIntyre 31:04

Um, and John, you want to pull that up?

Phillip Rich 31:08

Yeah, it says a person's own folly leads to their ruin, yet their heart rages against the Lord. And then I love the New Living Translation says, People ruin their lives by their own foolishness and then are angry at the Lord.

David McIntyre 31:24

And then that's what that's what this is kind of like. It's this sense that, you know, I could under, I actually understood some of the things this woman was saying in this video, and it also makes me think, Phil, of all of the people who we've heard of in the past who are deconstructing from their Christianity, you know, who are found other ways and and all this other stuff. And it's just like, you know, why is it? Why do we go to church and expect to be or get involved with the church or ministry or whatever? Why is it that we do that and we expect that we're gonna be surrounded by perfect people who love us all the time, never gonna do anything wrong, they're never gonna lie, they're never gonna cheat on their spouse, you're never gonna do anything wrong. They're always gonna teach you the perfectly right word of God. Everything's gonna be great, and nothing ever is going to be wrong in the church. You gotta know that that can't be true because you're there.

Phillip Rich 32:29

Yeah, true indeed. True indeed.

David McIntyre 32:34

You know, go feel, go, go, go.

Phillip Rich 32:37

I'm just gonna say this real quick. It's it's just the equivalent of going to college, failing your your calculus class or whatever, and saying college sucks and college doesn't work. Yeah, you know, it's kind of the same thing.

Jon Dzyuba 32:50

So no one gets mad at Bill Gates when you know somebody at Microsoft decided to do you dirty, you know. Bill Gates, I ah man, it's I've heard family members do that, it's hilarious. I hate that Bill Gates, he made my job terrible.

David McIntyre 33:06

I'm like, dude, anyways, just we we get God gets such a bad rap in our world, he gets blamed for things that he didn't do, yeah. He gets accused of saying things he didn't say, then when he does do certain things, then people instead of trying to dig and understand it, they don't understand it and just assume the worst about him. How many people just think about it? How many people have you heard talk about? I read the old testament and I can't serve a god like that.

Phillip Rich 33:47

Yes, I've heard that so many times, dude.

Should You Leave A Church

David McIntyre 33:51

I've read the old testament too, and I came away with something very different than you did. Why is it? And it's so interesting. I listened to this story of this woman, and she said she read the old testament one time, and she said, That can't be my God. Fortunately, she had a godly man around her who said, Okay, I want you to go back and reread it again and consider these things. And he gave her a couple of things to look at. She reread it again and she says, God loves me. Yeah, and that's a tremendously different perspective than the one she had when she started. Because when she started, she was reading it through humanistic eyes, through her human eyes, trying to relate it to her world today. Instead of putting it in context, understanding the themes that were brewing there, and putting the pieces together to understand what God is doing. Because if you really read the Old Testament well, what you begin to see is God loved us so much that he began to craft a plan to redeem us. Yeah, and he walks us up to a point where we get to the book of Malachi. I think that's the last book in the Old Testament, and we get to Malachi, and that is the point where God's plan is about to hatch. Right. So by the time we turn over to Matthew, we don't even realize it, but we're already in the thick of God's plan, and He's doing something, it's about to be amazing, and it starts with a child being born, and too few people understand who that child was, except the ones who are prophesying about it, and those who believe that prophecies from hundreds, even thousands of years ago, were upon them for real now, right? And he reveals himself to mankind as the redeemer.

Phillip Rich 35:59

Come on, man.

David McIntyre 36:01

And it we we missed that part of the story because you know, we read the Bible says slavery. Oh, no, no, explain slavery to me. Why would God want slavery? Why would he have slaveries? You know, it but you were never a slave. So why are you acting like you were just came out of chains and you don't understand that? It's just it's wild, it's wild.

Phillip Rich 36:30

I'll go ahead. I like what this comment. John, you want to speak to that comment on the on the screen there?

Sound Doctrine Over Hype

Jon Dzyuba 36:36

I actually I do. Um if you're listening, the comment is you know, uh key of M55 saying to me the O test Old Testament shows God's amazing mercy towards us, and in parentheses considering how many times humanity drops the ball. LOL. I couldn't say it any, couldn't have said it any better myself. I the the the thing that comes to my mind, um, I love movies. If you didn't know that, I love movies and I love these cinematic universes that we've been seeing for the past few years. Um, I can't help compare it to that because when you watch these cinematic experiences or whatever, you you know, it's a lot of it is just you know one brick being laid on top of the other. Um, and this gets to this point where if you watch a standalone movie, sometimes you don't understand the context or you don't understand what's going on. Um, and I think that it's uh like God did it first here in the Old Testament. The New Testament is the good news. This is just like Mr. David said, there's nothing nor more to add to that. We have a savior, he died for us and he resurrected for us. The old testament tells you why it's so important that we have a savior. Um it laid the groundwork um for the for us to even for a reason for us to have an a savior. Um I kind of I'm gonna go off on a little bit of a tangent, but I want to go full circle. Uh if you give me a second, uh I actually wanted to bring up Genesis three, if I recall correctly. Yep. Um it this I wanted to notate on something that you said earlier when we were reading in First Kings, uh, where God asks Elijah, uh, what are you doing here? And your your commentary was really interesting and reminded me of Genesis 3, where uh, you know, God talks to Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve, they hear him, they run away, and they go into hiding. And God's asking him these questions, uh, very much in character to you know the questions that he was asking Elijah, uh, which is, you know, why are you hiding? Or excuse me, where the first question is, where are you? Mind you, like we stated before, this is an all-knowing God. God knows the answers to these questions, but they're um as we like like we mentioned before, the reason for it is to bring out the confession from Adam and Eve. He's asking him, not just what did you do, he's asking him, Where are you? Then they had to reveal themselves. I heard your voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid myself. Who told you you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat? And then the man answered, uh, you know, he blamed the woman that you gave me, but uh, she gave me the fruit from the tree and I ate it. And so he also got a confession confession from Eve. Um, you know, what is this? Have you done? The serpent deceived me and I ate it. Um this if if you're not being you know, all knowing being this dialogue doesn't matter. You know why they're hiding, you know where they're hiding, you know why they know that they're naked, you know what they've done. Um, he doesn't do it for the sake of himself, he does it for the sake of us. Um, and now to bring it full circle. I do believe that God puts us in a place where He asks us these questions to bring the confession out of us because the confession breeds truth and honesty in our own character. Um, and that honesty opens up our eyes to be able to see uh why we're doing certain things. Why are we here? What are we doing in this church? Are we supposed to even be in this church? Why did you leave this church? Well, if I'm being completely honest, this person hurt me. And if I I know I'm like having like three different ideas going off at the same time, but uh what I wanted to harp on, it's because I'm like, there's like so many connections to be made here. Um, but to bring it back to our original point was that um if you don't tune out God and you keep listening to him and keep obeying him, uh, he's gonna ask you why you left this church, why have you stopped doing this? Um, and if you're honest with yourself and you're honest to God, God already knows the answer. He gives I believe he's just trying to get you to be honest with yourself. Um, you'll reveal to yourself why you actually left certain places or why you gave up on Christianity or whatever the case may be. Um, I think it's important that we don't miss that. Um if you are somebody who has been hurt by a church and don't want to go to that church, um, I beg that you listen to God and you you ask him what he wants from you. Um if you're a person that just left Christianity altogether because of the church, um, I I gotta you I I implore you to ask yourself, is this something that you feel deeply hurt by God? Or is this something that you feel deeply hurt by somebody who did something to you at that church? Um and I'm gonna I'm gonna bring this to as like a question to you guys. Um from my experience, it's often somebody hurt me, um, and they blame God because, well, God is so powerful. Why didn't He just stop this? Why didn't He prevent this thing from happening to me in this church? Um, I want to ask you guys if there's somebody here right now, or whoever's watching this that had a similar experience, I can promise you, some a lot of people have probably had this experience. What would you how would you answer that question or go about having that conversation with somebody?

David McIntyre 42:34

John, before I answer before Philip answers that question, pull that verse back up because I want to show you exactly what we mean, especially what came out of that commentary. If you go back to the first question, God asked them, Where are you? That's a question of positioning. Because always when God walked through the garden in the cool of the day, they were present, they were not hidden, right? So they were out of position. So God asked them basically, why aren't you where you normally are?

Phillip Rich 43:12

Right.

David McIntyre 43:13

The second question is of who told you you were naked deals with fear and feelings. Because what's revealed afterwards is the expression of their fears and their feelings about situations and circumstances, not because they were naked, but because of what they had done. Yeah. Because what they had done was against what God had said to do, and so that's where the feelings and the fear came in. And inevitably, like you said, God wants us to face our fears and tell ourselves the truth about not only our fears, but our feelings. He already knows it's often us that are hiding and disguising how we really feel and what we're fearing from ourselves. But the moment that it's laid bare in the open, then the time for healing and overcoming it becomes very real.

Phillip Rich 44:12

Yeah, that's good.

David McIntyre 44:14

Philip, you want to tackle that question?

Phillip Rich 44:16

Man, that first of all, that was good, David. Um you gotta have the the truth, you know. Uh the truth has to come out first before any real progress can be made. Um, there's that scripture that says, Um, in Psalm 51, David said, 'You desire truth in the inward parts.' You know, it was right in the middle of his repenting for the sin that he committed. And man, did David have to come clean. You know, that was a tough, tough thing. Like, he couldn't refute what was being put out there. You know, he got he got called on the carpet, dude. It was just as red-handed as you could get, you know, and he was like, Daggum it, God, I acknowledge I screwed up. And he and somewhere as he's kind of expressing that whole prayer, he recognizes that truth is what's required to get anywhere. You know, um, and there's a scripture in Proverbs, I think it's Proverbs 28, maybe 13. It says, He that covers his sins will not prosper. But if you confess and forsake them, you'll have mercy. You know, it's that same kind of idea of dude, just just be what's the word? Yeah, there it is. Was I right with the all right? I was right with the chapter and verse. I wasn't sure if I was or not. That's cool. Um, yeah, like the the NIV says, uh, I mean the NLT, New Living Translation says, people who conceal their sins will not prosper, but if they confess and turn from them, they will receive mercy. So it's like God's looking for that openness. You know, the Bible talks about how we could come boldly to the throne of grace to obtain mercy. Um, in Hebrews 4 16, it says that. Now it's interesting, that verse, and then Hebrews 10, where it says in verse 19, Hebrews 10, it says, We have boldness to enter into the Holy of Holies by the blood of Jesus. If you look up that word boldness, it the literal Greek translation actually means freedom of speech, it means total openness, being completely frank, being completely open with your speech, and just kind of giving the idea that don't try to hide nothing from God. He knows it all anyway. You know what I mean? And you don't try to come with some pretentious religious presentation. God knows when you're being fake, right? He knows when you're being fake. He's like Santa Claus, he knows when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake. Okay, sorry. Um, but it's it's kind of like I'm sorry, I shouldn't know. Can't put uh the Lord on the level of Santa Claus, man.

Jon Dzyuba 47:06

You know, confirmed here. Jesus is Santa.

Community, Maturity, And Standards

Phillip Rich 47:11

Um God's much greater than Santa, but anyway, um but to the point, man, you know, uh getting things off your chest in a very real way that is not in any kind of way being carnal, it's not in any kind of way being ungodly, quote unquote, because you might say something that sounds harsh or whatever. Uh no, it's actually just the truth. And God desires truth in the inward parts, man. That's what he wants from all of us. And until we can get that honest with ourselves to be able to present that kind of truthfulness, truthfulness to God, you'll still be stuck in some stuff, man. Um, you'll still be thinking that you're making progress, but really you're still spinning your wheels.

David McIntyre 47:55

Mm-hmm. Well, running around the same circle. Yeah, John, John, can you you your question restate your can you restate your question?

Jon Dzyuba 48:06

Sure. Um, if there were somebody right here, right now watching this that has experienced hurt from church and had decided to leave the church, uh, and they blame God, how would you respond to that person or how would you have a what com what would the conversation look like with that person?

David McIntyre 48:26

You know, the first thing I would say is if you find yourself hurt in the church and you decide to leave that church, um I don't necessarily think that's a bad idea. Um but you you want you want to be is in all things you want to be led in your movement. Right? So if you're experiencing this church hurt and it's not just because look, if it's just an individual, then you find a way to move away from that individual. But if there are several elements of the church and things that are happening that are impacting you, you kind of begin to ask yourself, why am I here? And then once you ask yourself the question, why am I here? and you have an honest conversation with God, then the next question is, Lord, what would you have me to do? And then it's like whatever he tells you to do, do it. Whatever that sense is of whether you need to move or not, you follow that that sense out. You can't one, you know, like in this woman's case, I kept asking the question to myself, why did you stay in a place that presented all of these problems to you? Why did you remain knowing that these things are happening? And I'm gonna tell you one of the big signs that it's time to move on from another church, and we can't say this more here. A church that does not teach God's word is not the church for you.

Phillip Rich 50:07

Come on, bro. Now, I don't even have to be a prophet, and I can tell you that's the daggum truth right there.

David McIntyre 50:14

Correct, correct.

Phillip Rich 50:16

I don't care what church it is, how famous the pastor is, how many people attend, if they're not teaching the Bible, the scriptures, if it's more feel-good lollipop sermons and crap like that, if it's motivational personal development, but there's no scripture being shared, that's not a church that's actually feeding you. It may be entertaining you, but it's not feeding you. That's a good word to use.

David McIntyre 50:40

And Timothy, Timothy warns us, he warns us about those who will only want to hear what is good for their itching ears, right? You know, and it the itching ears replies to you know, I want the gospel of my own making. I want a gospel that you know I don't want to hear about no suffering for Christ. So I'm gonna find a church where they don't talk about that because I don't believe that. I need a prosperity church because I need my money, I need my bag. And so you go and get in your bag, and while you're in your bag, you're being consistently wounded by other people who are in the same position you are, they're for itching ears and not for the word of God. So they never learn to grow and how they treat other believers, they never grow in their walk with the Lord and go from glory to glory from to glory to glory and grow and mature spiritually. We talked just a couple of weeks ago about the concept of the virtues in First Peter, we talked about the fruit of the spirit in Galatians, and that for the real Christian, you should over time see those fruits beginning to bear and then grow and mature in their lives. But if you're sitting around in a church where you don't seem to see there being any growth, but now check it out, you gotta be doing a little growing yourself in order to see that other people aren't. Right, right, true because if you're in the same place that they're in and you're not maturing and you're not growing, and everybody else seems to stay the same place that you are. I got a sneaking suspicion that your church may not be teaching the word. Yeah, so you've got you've gotta you've gotta make adjustments, and I'm I am pass, I I understand and I hurt for you, Horan, because there I we already see there are some churches in this community, I would not step my foot in the door. There are some of these churches where not far from now, I believe you're gonna see Ichabod written upon their doors because they are blasphemous churches, that they are teaching another gospel, and the word says, unless angels, even if angels come to you, anybody who teaches another gospel that is out of that's out of the wheel. Yeah, and so you're gonna have to be on guard and you're gonna have to be wise, and most importantly, the way that you best discern where to go and what to do is making sure that you have your own steady diet of the word because it forms you, it shapes you, it helps to sharpen your antenna and helps you to rightfully discern between good and evil.

Phillip Rich 53:32

That's right. That's right.

David McIntyre 53:36

Yeah, and I'm I'm too amped up about this.

Phillip Rich 53:43

You know, Timothy said, Oh well, Paul said in second Timothy, he said, the time is gonna come where people will not endure sound doctrine, they simply won't be able to take it.

David McIntyre 53:54

He said, But you kind of feel like don't you kind of feel like we're there?

Clarifying Church Vs The Church

Phillip Rich 53:59

I do a thousand percent. And it's just it's straight from the scripture. He said they're gonna have itching ears and they're gonna heap to themselves teachers, meaning they're gonna pile up teacher after teacher to go from one conference to another conference, and it's all designed uh or it's all meant to just find the the one who's gonna tickle my ears the best. And they don't care whether it's true, they don't care whether it's you know actually gonna change anything in their life, it's just a matter of I want to be rasmatized and emotionally uh amped up, you know what I mean, and and that kind of stuff. It may have temporary value to make you feel temporarily better, but it does nothing to put your feet on solid rock. No, you know, you still go back to the same crap in your life that you had before, uh, but at least you had a great time while you were there. And I'm not interested in that whatsoever, man. I want something from God's word that's gonna help me stay on solid ground when I deal with challenges, when I'm and when when life comes at you in whatever kind of way it tries to, you know. I I want to be able to have a reservoir of scripture that I can refer to and know how to apply it, like use it like the sword of the spirit in my life, you know, and and see actual results from it. And and I also don't want to think that I'm always gonna be right about everything. You know, I don't want to be in a place where you're just constantly being affirmed and nothing's ever, you know, no, you could never say anything wrong. It's it's like a YouTube video I saw where they were like doing a parody of a guidance counselor at a school, and the guy said, You've done nothing wrong, and you never will. You know, you know, it's like you don't want to be in that kind of place, man. You know, that won't end up well, it will not turn out well. So anyway.

David McIntyre 55:51

Yeah, that's that's good, Philip. Uh yeah, we've gotta we've gotta figure this thing out, and we've gotta start with when something goes wrong in the church, when something goes wrong with individuals in the church, that I don't start by blaming God for his people. I recognize that people are people, and whether they're in the church, at a hospital, at the grocery store, at work, wherever they may be, people are going to be people. Truth. They're going to sin, they're going to lie, they're going to manipulate, they're going to play around with the truth. Some will be spiritually mature, others won't, some will be in between. And you recognize that when you go into a church, you're going into an environment where everybody is trying to get spiritually healthy so that you can make a difference in this world through your spiritual health and maturity. Some people are going after it, others are not. Some people are there just so they can check off the boxes and say, I went to church this week. Others are serious and desire to walk with the Lord. Your goal is to find those who are serious and want to be connected with the Lord and build community and fellowship with them. If you can't find that in your church, then you need to find another church that teaches the word. I'm reminded of a church where the pastor went to an event at another church. Now, let me tell you, the other church had two gay pastors, two men, loving and kissing and hugging on one another in the went and said, On behalf of the body of Christ, I apologize for how I used to think about this. Hey, I'm part of the body, and you are not apologizing for me. Because I love you as my brothers in Christ, because I do believe it's possible for you to struggle with homosexuality and be a Christian. It is not possible for you to continually live that lifestyle where you are acting out on those struggles and maintain your Christianity. Right. Right. So I love you as my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I'll always be available to help you. But I also recognize that God has a standard, and my job is to find that standard and be a part of upholding it. And you have the same standard. Stop giving up on God and give up on some of this foolishness that you're involved in. Hey, how about this? Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, Philip. Sorry, last one. No, you're good, man. My black church people. How long will we endure a bunch of singing, hooting, and hollering? We got the we got the we got the dance down, we got all of that stuff, but we got no word in us. We gotta stop playing these games. We're playing too many games with God, and it's costing us our lives.

Phillip Rich 59:21

Come on, man.

David McIntyre 59:22

We gotta stop this and get serious about the things of God, serious about where we go to church, serious about who we develop relationships with, and then serious about maturing and growing in Christ so that we can make a difference. We gotta stop. We gotta stop playing these games. Amen. Well, just real quick, I'm overly passionate right now. I know we're way over in time, too.

Closing Thoughts And Next Steps

Phillip Rich 59:54

I I like um well, what Henry said, I just want to point this out. Real quick because that I don't go to church, but I still believe in God. Is that all right, brother? Let me tell you something. If you are a believer in Jesus Christ, the the amazing thing is you are the church, right? Church is not a building that you go to, the church is actually the men and women and boys and girls who make up the body of Christ, believers in Jesus. We are the church. Uh it says so in 1 Corinthians 3 16, it says, You are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in you. And actually, if you look at that Greek word church, uh all through the New Testament, it's a Greek word, um, the Greek word for church is the word ecclesia, I think it means, and it means those who have been called out or those who've been set aside and called out. So, and that's us, that's those of us who believe in Jesus. So, yes, you could you could never darken the doors of a building, uh, you know, labeled as a church, and be a believer in God and Jesus all day long. And if you think about it this way, there's people all over this world in China and in uh Iran and places where Christianity is literally outlawed, they can't set foot in a church building, right? They don't even have one to go to, yet they do believe in Jesus, they do follow him, and they are just as much a member of the church, quote unquote, as as those of us who are able to go every Sunday, you know. Um, yeah, it's all about seeking God and following His Word. That's really the key of the all of it.

David McIntyre 1:01:32

So the one thing I'd add to that for you, Henry, though, is find other people to walk with and do life with. Yeah. Create create your community because that's that really that really does make a difference because I don't want you to be out there and feel like you're alone. You're never alone as long as you have Christ. But one of the things that He gives us is our brothers and sisters in Christ to help us as we go through this life.

Phillip Rich 1:02:01

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Jon Dzyuba 1:02:04

And go ahead, John. No, I was gonna say that's like wrapped up so nice. I I want to maybe we can talk about it a little bit more next week because we talked about those who were hurt by the church, by somebody at church who left the church, but uh the the second part to that question and we can talk about it later if you want, but I also want to talk to those that were hurt by the church and left Christianity as a whole. Um, because I think there's a bit of a difference in the people who left a specific church versus people who just left Christ altogether. I think the wisdom still applies the same, but I want to I want to talk to those who were a little bit hurt. I I want to say that when a brother or sister reaches out to you and says, hey, A, B, and C is not okay, uh, and you trust that they're caring for you and they they they believe that you they want the best for you, um that's not church hurt. That's not that's that's somebody actually caring for you. I don't think I I when we're talking about growing up, I think a part of that includes, hey, they're not judging you, they're not trying to pass judgment on you and make you feel bad for the way that you are. No, they actually care for you. Uh, you need to kind of grow up a little bit and realize that maybe what they're saying might be a little bit true, that whatever substance or whatever sexual orientation that you have is probably that might not be good for you. Um I'm sure a lot of people are gonna have something to say about that comment, but um when you have a trusting when you have trusting people around you, um they'll when you surround yourself with people that you can trust and you know that they are faithful to the Lord, you have to believe that when they say stuff like that, it's for the intention is for you to be better as well. Yeah, not trying to hurt you. Um but we can get into all that probably next next week. I like that, John. Yeah, for sure.

David McIntyre 1:04:04

Yeah, all right, we're gonna call it a wrap on this episode. We put a bookmark in it back about 30 minutes ago, but it was a second and a third closing on this particular episode. Man, we're so glad that you guys have joined us. We hope you got something out of this, and if anything, hear our passion about this because we know that um that it is um it's about God, it's about our relationship with the Lord, and it's about living in this world to the best of our ability and uh giving ourselves over to the Father. And when we do that, even though everything in every day may not be perfect overall, when we look back over our lives, we'll have much to give God praise and praise. We're out there on Instagram. Uh, I know we're out there on Facebook, but none of us really are too. Um, we're also available on Rumble and YouTube. If you want to drop a comment, uh let us know how this episode affected you or questions that you may have or anything like that. Please make sure that you drop a note. We'll get that and we promise to reach back out to you. Remember, we do this every Wednesday. Uh, we're supposed to start about 7.15, but based upon David's system, it depends on when we'll start. So we'll start when we start. So somewhere around 7:15, 720, we should start with a live. And then remember, this podcast episode will be available on Mondays at 6 a.m. So you can use it for part of your Bible study during the well, that's it. We love you. We thank you so much for joining us. Um, David, he's Philip, that's John, and we are out of here. Peace out.